Apple Plans To Overhaul Entire Mac Line With AI-Focused M4 Chips

erek

erek

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“Apple, aiming to boost sluggish computer sales, is preparing to overhaul its entire Mac line with a new family of in-house processors designed to highlight AI. Bloomberg News:The company, which released its first Macs with M3 chips five months ago, is already nearing production of the next generation -- the M4 processor -- according to people with knowledge of the matter. The new chip will come in at least three main varieties, and Apple is looking to update every Mac model with it, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the plans haven't been announced.

The new Macs are underway at a critical time. After peaking in 2022, Mac sales fell 27% in the last fiscal year, which ended in September. In the holiday period, revenue from the computer line was flat. Apple attempted to breathe new life into the Mac business with an M3-focused launch event last October, but those chips didn't bring major performance improvements over the M2 from the prior year. Apple also is playing catch-up in AI, where it's seen as a laggard to Microsoft, Alphabet's Google and other tech peers. The new chips are part of a broader push to weave AI capabilities into all its products. Apple is aiming to release the updated computers beginning late this year and extending into early next year.”

Source: https://apple.slashdot.org/story/24...haul-entire-mac-line-with-ai-focused-m4-chips
 
erek said:
Apple also is playing catch-up in AI, where it's seen as a laggard to Microsoft, Alphabet's Google and other tech peers.
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I think a part of the perception is discretion about it,

they bought the most AI startup last year:
-eba5-4220-930c-ecd846d6b46e%2Fapple_acquisition_2.jpg


And have been quite involved in ML-AI the last 10 years with many actual product, they would have continued without calling it that.
 
The other half is, if you have an M1 based Mac for 90% of the consumer base there is no need to go to an M3.

If you are a corporate user there are few reasons to upgrade to an M3 from either the M1 or M2 variants. Unless you specifically need one of the few exclusives that the M3 offers it’s too small of an improvement.

It certainly doesn’t help that sales of the M1 were very good and that was only 4 years ago. It’s a repeat of the iPhone 6 where sales of the 7, 8, and 9 were notably smaller because of how many people bought the 6 and how few people replace their devices every year.
 
Lakados said:
The other half is, if you have an M1 based Mac for 90% of the consumer base there is no need to go to an M3.

If you are a corporate user there are few reasons to upgrade to an M3 from either the M1 or M2 variants. Unless you specifically need one of the few exclusives that the M3 offers it’s too small of an improvement.

It certainly doesn’t help that sales of the M1 were very good and that was only 4 years ago. It’s a repeat of the iPhone 6 where sales of the 7, 8, and 9 were notably smaller because of how many people bought the 6 and how few people replace their devices every year.
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This. The arm chips were so good out of the gate most people aren’t seeing a need to upgrade. Work buys me a new toy every year, but I really see no difference between my M3 and my M1 MacBook pro. They are that good.
 
bigddybn said:
This. The arm chips were so good out of the gate most people aren’t seeing a need to upgrade. Work buys me a new toy every year, but I really see no difference between my M3 and my M1 MacBook pro. They are that good.
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Lets not get crazy here. The latest Statcounter shows that MacOS has continued to lose market share, from 15.4% to 14.7% in a months worth of time. Go back to November of last year and MacOS was 21%. For this to happen it would mean less people are turning on their Macbooks and using them to browse the internet. Also, Apple is just chasing the AI hype train and nothing more.


View: https://youtu.be/-P-ein58laA?si=M2SG8yl-cwFUptot
 
DukenukemX said:
Lets not get crazy here. The latest Statcounter shows that MacOS has continued to lose market share, from 15.4% to 14.7% in a months worth of time. Go back to November of last year and MacOS was 21%. For this to happen it would mean less people are turning on their Macbooks and using them to browse the internet. Also, Apple is just chasing the AI hype train and nothing more.


View: https://youtu.be/-P-ein58laA?si=M2SG8yl-cwFUptot
Click to expand...

I’m not sure I trust those numbers on those sites, as their methods for obtaining numbers are questionable and rely on methods Apple blocks. I also think Linux is seeing higher usage than they give credit to for similar reasons. Their tracking relies on methods that get blocked. So really what they are tracking is Chrome Based or Firefox browsers that aren’t using blockers and some have enhanced security features required.
 
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paradoxical said:
My 14 inch Macbook Pro has more ram than your desktop PC and phone combined.
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They sell a 128GB version for $4700, is that what you are referring to? I can certainly get more ram for less than that if i needed.

also a weird flex, phones are what 6-8GB? Yea my macbook has more memory than your pc and tickle me elmo COMBINED!
 
bigddybn said:
This. The arm chips were so good out of the gate most people aren’t seeing a need to upgrade. Work buys me a new toy every year, but I really see no difference between my M3 and my M1 MacBook pro. They are that good.
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Or, the ARM ISA has limits to scalability, and incrementally improving the performance without drastically increasing cost or power usage is much harder than it is with AM64 ISA, meaning that Apple got most of the low-hanging fruit with the M1, and there just isn't room without a drastic re-design to capture much more performance from the design.

Also, don't forget that most of the performance of the Apple silicon comes from the added ASIC accelerators to the main CPU, which isn't going to improve without those getting a massive redesign.
 
jardows said:
Or, the ARM ISA has limits to scalability, and incrementally improving the performance without drastically increasing cost or power usage is much harder than it is with AM64 ISA, meaning that Apple got most of the low-hanging fruit with the M1, and there just isn't room without a drastic re-design to capture much more performance from the design.

Also, don't forget that most of the performance of the Apple silicon comes from the added ASIC accelerators to the main CPU, which isn't going to improve without those getting a massive redesign.
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I'm curious as to where Apple can and will go with M4 beyond the Neural Engine upgrade. I could see a raw performance boost thanks to the improved 3nm process, but after that it's not clear. Maybe a newer version of the ARM architecture?

Either way, I'd say this is a nice problem for Apple to have. The company still has a significant advantage in performance while on battery, and for some tasks all those ASICs and other specializations keep the chips ahead.
 
Aurelius said:
I'm curious as to where Apple can and will go with M4 beyond the Neural Engine upgrade. I could see a raw performance boost thanks to the improved 3nm process, but after that it's not clear. Maybe a newer version of the ARM architecture?

Either way, I'd say this is a nice problem for Apple to have. The company still has a significant advantage in performance while on battery, and for some tasks all those ASICs and other specializations keep the chips ahead.
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Apple now has the same problem Intel and AMD has, node shrinks aren’t getting them the performance uplifts they used to. So now they need features and accelerators, but they already had accelerators, but their feature set is a pale comparison to what AMD, Intel, and Nvidia can provide. So Apple must either A reduce price, or B rapidly expand features and performance.
Maybe they start using DDR6 in their systems?
 
I have plenty of Apple products… but Apple has literally cut down features on each “new” generation of MacBook Pro. SSD bandwidth, RAM issues, battery issues, and the icing on the cake was offering a M3 MacBook Pro with a NON PRO cpu. Now that’s funny. Then they water down their selection by offering a ton of variants confusing potential buyers. 13” MacBook Pro with the old body style and or Touch Bar? 14 MacBook Pro with non pro cpu? Same with Pro cpu variant? 16” pro ? 15” air now? 13” air still? Yea it’s hard to blame consumers.

Choice is great usually. This time not so much. Well it’s the overlap that is the issue I think. I’d love a shiny new machine but honestly they’ve not given me much of a reason to shelf my MacBook Pro 16” M1 Pro
 
LukeTbk said:
I think a part of the perception is discretion about it,

they bought the most AI startup last year:
View attachment 647070

And have been quite involved in ML-AI the last 10 years with many actual product, they would have continued without calling it that.
Click to expand...

M&A still remains the number one way massive incumbents can stifle competition and deter innovation in any given market space.
 
longblock454 said:
Any rumors of an upcoming AI something or other? Or is this going to be another Apple Car?
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For LLM there was a rumors of Google Gemini to provide it as a stop gap until their own is ready, if we look at what they bought since 2016,

better Siri (the search part, more natural voice part and so on)
better assessment of the user emotions
compression video (content aware compression/decompression)
A lot of stuff for assessing the world, handling eye tracking and user motion for their VR helmet.
Music generation.

It is different than an Apple car because for a lot of it, it is not a new product, a bit like nano-materials/nano-tech, you get nano-particule in sunscreens without knowing it, you get ML-AI used in your search result, picture app, siri, music recommendation, hand movement recognition with the apple helmet or phone camera, detecting if the user want to scroll the webpage or see the buttons to get out of it.

The novel product or flashy feature that are just not better ML than their ML of 7 years ago could be more Apple Car like, but it is much easier to do than a car if we talk about generative audio-video for their Final Cut/iMovie and some auto-editing feature, XCode coding copilot, Pages-Keynote generative writing.


Has for M chips stagnation....
Air with m2 (july 2022)-> Air with M3 (march 2024)
Cinebench
GPU: 1722->3312 (+92%)
CPU ST: 121->141 (+16%)
CPU MT: 544->638 (+17%)

GPU still had a lot of room to grow I would presume (and maybe some of the accelerator but some where long going developpment that went from discrete card they sold to the SOC), but yes CPU wise for a 2 years release cycle, getting the low hanging fruit (for a giant with maybe the most technical staff in the world) that is way better GPU-NPU capability make sense and have software leverage GPU-NPU more.
 
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Darunion said:
They sell a 128GB version for $4700, is that what you are referring to? I can certainly get more ram for less than that if i needed.

also a weird flex, phones are what 6-8GB? Yea my macbook has more memory than your pc and tickle me elmo COMBINED!
Click to expand...

This is always how Macbook discussions wind up and it is hilarious to me.

Me: "My macbook is (insert one) - faster, has more ram, more storage, more I/O, better battery life, thinner, runs cooler, faster I/O, etc - than your machine"

Windows enthusiast: "NOT TRUE WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT"

Me: Posts proof

Windows enthusiast: "LOL OF COURSE THE MACBOOK HAS MORE RAM/BETTER BATTERY LIFE, NOBODY WAS DEBATING THAT LOL, WE WERE JUST SAYING WHAT A BAD VALUE IT IS YOU OVERPAID, I CAN BUY A RACKMOUNT SERVER AND UPGRADE THE RAM TO MORE FOR CHEAPER "

"Like clockwork" doesn't even begin to describe how predictable it is.
 
paradoxical said:
This is always how Macbook discussions wind up and it is hilarious to me.

Me: "My macbook is (insert one) - faster, has more ram, more storage, more I/O, better battery life, thinner, runs cooler, faster I/O, etc - than your machine"

Windows enthusiast: "NOT TRUE WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT"

Me: Posts proof

Windows enthusiast: "LOL OF COURSE THE MACBOOK HAS MORE RAM/BETTER BATTERY LIFE, NOBODY WAS DEBATING THAT LOL, WE WERE JUST SAYING WHAT A BAD VALUE IT IS YOU OVERPAID, I CAN BUY A RACKMOUNT SERVER AND UPGRADE THE RAM TO MORE FOR CHEAPER "

"Like clockwork" doesn't even begin to describe how predictable it is.
Click to expand...

Painful, but it’s a reasonably accurate depiction.
 
paradoxical said:
This is always how Macbook discussions wind up and it is hilarious to me.

Me: "My macbook is (insert one) - faster, has more ram, more storage, more I/O, better battery life, thinner, runs cooler, faster I/O, etc - than your machine"

Windows enthusiast: "NOT TRUE WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT"

Me: Posts proof

Windows enthusiast: "LOL OF COURSE THE MACBOOK HAS MORE RAM/BETTER BATTERY LIFE, NOBODY WAS DEBATING THAT LOL, WE WERE JUST SAYING WHAT A BAD VALUE IT IS YOU OVERPAID, I CAN BUY A RACKMOUNT SERVER AND UPGRADE THE RAM TO MORE FOR CHEAPER "

"Like clockwork" doesn't even begin to describe how predictable it is.
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All you did was brag. You provided no numbers. Like a vegan announcing their diet to the whole bar when they walk in.

Prolly do have more than me, my pc is 8years old now and only 64gb ram. Phone is iphone 13pro and thats what 6GB?

Hardware enthusiast forum and you bragged about an off the shelf purchase. Cool.
 
Darunion said:
All you did was brag. You provided no numbers. Like a vegan announcing their diet to the whole bar when they walk in.

Prolly do have more than me, my pc is 8years old now and only 64gb ram. Phone is iphone 13pro and thats what 6GB?

Hardware enthusiast forum and you bragged about an off the shelf purchase. Cool.
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What I actually did was poke fun at someone making fun of Apple's "lack of ram" by pointing out that they ship a 14 inch laptop (mine) which has more RAM than 99.9% if not 100% of PC 13-14in laptops. With higher memory bandwidth. Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

This isn't really a hardware enthusiast forum anymore. If it was, Apple products would get way more respect. Besides, there is zero skill involved in building a high performance desktop anymore. Congrats, you threw together a couple parts that literally best buy stocks. 12 year olds do that. Show me your LN2 dewar and then maybe we can talk about being a hardware enthusiast.

I have been phase change cooling since the Chilly1 days and have been voltmodding things since back in the Radeon 9700 Pro and Asus P4C800-E days. Today I own a watercooled 64 core Threadripper and high end Intel desktops with 4090s in them. I love hardware to its core and work in embedded processing professionally. What Apple has done is some of the most impressive hardware engineering in the past decade, and I use their Macbook Pro 14 as my daily driver because it's the best performing 14 inch laptop in the world when it comes to the blend of overall system performance, features, storage, I/O, quality human interface devices, and build quality.

If you are more impressed by an off the shelf, parts-bin Intel based laptop that some shitty OEM like Acer or Asus threw in a custom case than a ground up design where the company built everything from their own CPU to their own SSD controller, you're simply not a hardware enthusiast - you're a RGB LED enthusiast.
 
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paradoxical said:
What I actually did was poke fun at someone making fun of Apple's "lack of ram" by pointing out that they ship a 14 inch laptop (mine) which has more RAM than 99.9% if not 100% of PC 13-14in laptops.
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No you said desktop PC, and you can have 128 GB of ram Laptop
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...ops-fit-128gb-of-ddr5-ram-on-a-single-module/
https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/del...n/spd/precision-17-7780-laptop/xctop7780usvp2

paradoxical said:
My 14 inch Macbook Pro has more ram than your desktop PC and phone combined.
Click to expand...

that part is quite true:
paradoxical said:
If it was, Apple products would get way more respect.
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Their VR launch, for example.....
 
Lakados said:
I’m not sure I trust those numbers on those sites, as their methods for obtaining numbers are questionable and rely on methods Apple blocks. I also think Linux is seeing higher usage than they give credit to for similar reasons. Their tracking relies on methods that get blocked. So really what they are tracking is Chrome Based or Firefox browsers that aren’t using blockers and some have enhanced security features required.
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Eventually we'll find out from Apple themselves with their quarter earnings.
paradoxical said:
My 14 inch Macbook Pro has more ram than your desktop PC and phone combined.
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To be fair, your Macbook Pro also costs more than his desktop PC and phone.
 
DukenukemX said:
Eventually we'll find out from Apple themselves with their quarter earnings.
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A bit of a different conversation, are sales down because people do not need to update, because the average device sold is the lower price range or because they are loosing market share (the part the browser data try to show, but with sudden change some quarter it look like how good at counting unique web user can change in the privacy tech battle).

https://www.macworld.com/article/2130070/mac-sales-slump-revenue-services-growth.html
After a 34-percent drop, sales are basically back where they were before Apple silicon (and the pandemic) arrived.

It can be a mix of those, most M1 buyers could feel that their battery life is still good enough and obviously the performance ridiculous for their needs, which is a good guess, imagine PC lifetime if you remove gaming from them and some hardware like SSD did made the non-cpu part make up for it, could be now that WFH subvention-company paying for it dry out people buy the cheaper options.

Could be they sold so much in 2021-2022 than it hurt 2023:
apple-Q423-annual-mac-revenue.jpg


Could be the computer market is overall down, could be they are loosing market share, not sure if is possible to know.
 
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paradoxical said:
My 14 inch Macbook Pro has more ram than your desktop PC and phone combined.
Click to expand...

auntjemima said:
That's unlikely.
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paradoxical said:
This is always how Macbook discussions wind up and it is hilarious to me.

Me: "My macbook is (insert one) - faster, has more ram, more storage, more I/O, better battery life, thinner, runs cooler, faster I/O, etc - than your machine"

Windows enthusiast: "NOT TRUE WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT"

Me: Posts proof

Windows enthusiast: "LOL OF COURSE THE MACBOOK HAS MORE RAM/BETTER BATTERY LIFE, NOBODY WAS DEBATING THAT LOL, WE WERE JUST SAYING WHAT A BAD VALUE IT IS YOU OVERPAID, I CAN BUY A RACKMOUNT SERVER AND UPGRADE THE RAM TO MORE FOR CHEAPER "

"Like clockwork" doesn't even begin to describe how predictable it is.
Click to expand...
DukenukemX said:
To be fair, your Macbook Pro also costs more than his desktop PC and phone.
Click to expand...

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.
 
DukenukemX said:
Here's some numbers. How many RTX 4090's can you fit in a PC to match the price of a Mac Pro? Only one is need to outperform it, but we need to pump those numbers up.

View: https://youtu.be/jYlNEZPntqM?si=EWFlWIQpOOYn9a9c
Click to expand...


I don't understand, why don't you just buy a few RTX 4090s and a loaded Macbook Pro? That way you can have the fastest gaming PC and the best laptop in the world? That's what I did.
 
Maybe it’s a usage case thing. Both my M1 MacBook Air and M2 Mini have 8GB of RAM. Has never once been an issue for me. RAM is designed to negate the effects of slow storage. Get fast enough storage and that need becomes less evident.
 
paradoxical said:
What I actually did was poke fun at someone making fun of Apple's "lack of ram" by pointing out that they ship a 14 inch laptop (mine) which has more RAM than 99.9% if not 100% of PC 13-14in laptops. With higher memory bandwidth. Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

This isn't really a hardware enthusiast forum anymore. If it was, Apple products would get way more respect. Besides, there is zero skill involved in building a high performance desktop anymore. Congrats, you threw together a couple parts that literally best buy stocks. 12 year olds do that. Show me your LN2 dewar and then maybe we can talk about being a hardware enthusiast.

I have been phase change cooling since the Chilly1 days and have been voltmodding things since back in the Radeon 9700 Pro and Asus P4C800-E days. Today I own a watercooled 64 core Threadripper and high end Intel desktops with 4090s in them. I love hardware to its core and work in embedded processing professionally. What Apple has done is some of the most impressive hardware engineering in the past decade, and I use their Macbook Pro 14 as my daily driver because it's the best performing 14 inch laptop in the world when it comes to the blend of overall system performance, features, storage, I/O, quality human interface devices, and build quality.

If you are more impressed by an off the shelf, parts-bin Intel based laptop that some shitty OEM like Acer or Asus threw in a custom case than a ground up design where the company built everything from their own CPU to their own SSD controller, you're simply not a hardware enthusiast - you're a RGB LED enthusiast.
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Sick straw man argument. Yes, your $5k laptop is badass and shouldn’t be underestimated.

Now let’s talk about the $1400 dollar Apple laptops with 8gb ram that hit EOL after 4 years. They serve a similar purpose to those shitty, parts bin Acer laptops you mentioned.

MacBooks at the high end are great. I feel like the base MacBook consumer gets taken advantage of because Apple tends to gimp their entry level models. I should know, I have bought them.

There was never any skill in building high end PCs. A little dremel action, a little soldering, a little faith when you boot up the vapochill for the first time.

Being a hardware enthusiast is about passion for computing and gaming and all things electronic. Don’t slander everyone else because they aren’t doing exactly what you’re doing. There are a lot of different budgets on this forum and I would like to see respect for people getting the most out of what they can afford.
 
Dudhunter said:
Sick straw man argument. Yes, your $5k laptop is badass and shouldn’t be underestimated.

Now let’s talk about the $1400 dollar Apple laptops with 8gb ram that hit EOL after 4 years. They serve a similar purpose to those shitty, parts bin Acer laptops you mentioned.

MacBooks at the high end are great. I feel like the base MacBook consumer gets taken advantage of because Apple tends to gimp their entry level models. I should know, I have bought them.

There was never any skill in building high end PCs. A little dremel action, a little soldering, a little faith when you boot up the vapochill for the first time.

Being a hardware enthusiast is about passion for computing and gaming and all things electronic. Don’t slander everyone else because they aren’t doing exactly what you’re doing. There are a lot of different budgets on this forum and I would like to see respect for people getting the most out of what they can afford.
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I don’t think 8gb is enough, not once you start using Office or Adobe products, but if you are staying inside the built in Apple software it’s fine.
I mean I can crap on their ram numbers but Windows OEM’s still sell win 11 machines with 4GB which isn’t enough to run Chrome/Edge let alone anything else.
 
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