Anyone else have the hots for the Mac Pro?

[NulloModo]

I'm actually very disappointed with the Mac Pro. Yeah, great. Quad processors. FB-DIMMs, that was an Intel design call - not Apple - so I can't blame them there. Finally, more than two hard drives - about freaking time! Like the Firewire configuration. But the 4 16x-mechanical slots was a really, really bad judgement call on their part. Hell, I'd almost call it deceptive, because they hid it in the fine print.
"Configurable bandwidth that mechanically supports 16-lane cards"
Mechanically means the slot has the physical room only. Nowhere does Apple say how many total lanes they have. Based on the features (533/667 FB-DIMM, Woodcrest) and timing, it's almost certainly an Intel E5000X (Greencreek) chipset with the 6321ESB I/O hub and without the 6700PXH PCI Hub. Why? Only chipset out right now that supports Woodcrest and FB-DIMMs. Greencreek only has 20 PCI-Express lanes. That means those four 7300GTs? They're running with a whopping 4 lanes. That also rules out dual 7950/4500X2's, which require 16 lane electrical per still. (Apple may get nVidia to change this in BIOS soonish.)

Right up to the point I saw the PCI-Express problem, I was seriously considering the Mac Pro. But seeing that, I'll definitely be passing on this one. I'll wait for the Mac Pro that actually has the PCI-Express lanes to support it's physical slot configuration - hopefully next year.

For alot of the Mac Pro market it might work though. I will fully admit you are far more an expert on workstations than I am, so if I am completely off on anything let me know, but the Quadro cards mainly come into play on high end 3D rendering applications and CAD type software correct? A lot of 'pro' Mac users mainly do Quark/Pagemaker (or what is it now, InDesign? Pagemaker was a better name...)/Photoshop and FincalCut(Pro) none of which really need even one Quadro, much less two.

 

[Black Morty Rackham]

For alot of the Mac Pro market it might work though. I will fully admit you are far more an expert on workstations than I am, so if I am completely off on anything let me know, but the Quadro cards mainly come into play on high end 3D rendering applications and CAD type software correct? A lot of 'pro' Mac users mainly do Quark/Pagemaker (or what is it now, InDesign? Pagemaker was a better name...)/Photoshop and FincalCut(Pro) none of which really need even one Quadro, much less two.

Some 30% of the Maya users run it on Macs. Lightwave has similar numbers. For modo and Cinema 4D, the Mac user base is closer to 40%. 3D on the Mac is a pretty big market.

Anyway, running multiple video cards is not really all that relevant to 3D artists. SLI is of no help what-so-ever in 3D apps, and very few 3D artists run more than two displays.



I think the Mac Pro is an AMAZING machine. Great performance, good expandability, terrific price (it's bloody cheap!).

 

[NulloModo]

I think the Mac Pro is an AMAZING machine. Great performance, good expandability, terrific price (it's bloody cheap!).

It is cheaper than I thought it would be, and for those who truly need it for work, chances are the company is going to foot the bill anyway, one Quadro plus Quad Xeon 5100 series should be enough to handle anything.

 

[Rocketpig]

For those who render 3D imagery and video, here's your Mac.

Great. Yippee. I don't render 3D imagery.

Now Apple needs to come out with a "Mac Work" or something like that with a good gaming vid card, a Core 2 Duo EE chip in it, 4 GB RAM max, two HD slots and they need to price it from $1499-1999 depending on model.

And the tower should be about half the size of the Mac Pro.

I'd sell my iMac and buy one of those in a heartbeat.

Right now I want the power of the iMac (or a little greater) with a good vid card and no monitor.

That Mac Pro is about 5 times the machine I need.

 

[NulloModo]

For those who render 3D imagery and video, here's your Mac.

Great. Yippee. I don't render 3D imagery.

Now Apple needs to come out with a "Mac Work" or something like that with a good gaming vid card, a Core 2 Duo EE chip in it, 4 GB RAM max, two HD slots and they need to price it from $1499-1999 depending on model.

And the tower should be about half the size of the Mac Pro.

I'd sell my iMac and buy one of those in a heartbeat.

Right now I want the power of the iMac (or a little greater) with a good vid card and no monitor.

That Mac Pro is about 5 times the machine I need.

There have been some other posters who have said it would be great for apple to relase a single CPU Core 2 Duo machine, sans integrated monitor, basic Shuttle or minitower type case, and price it between the iMac and the Mac Pro. Personally, I think that would be a great idea, I would pick something up like that in a heartbeat.

 

[Black Morty Rackham]

Something to fill up the $1499 price tag... 'twould be nice!

 

[NulloModo]

Something to fill up the $1499 price tag... 'twould be nice!

Seriously, Core 2 Duo E6600, 250 gb HD, DVD-RW with space for one more, stock 512 or 1gb of RAM and an x1600, I would be all over it.

 

[AreEss]

Some 30% of the Maya users run it on Macs. Lightwave has similar numbers. For modo and Cinema 4D, the Mac user base is closer to 40%. 3D on the Mac is a pretty big market.

Thanks Morty, I couldn't remember the numbers off the top of my head. Bear in mind, Lightwave and Maya are being pushed to Mac in no small part because real cards have gone away on PCs by and large. (Thanks again, Creative, you fucking retards.) With no real advantage, of course the creative folks want a good looking system. Can't blame 'em.

For alot of the Mac Pro market it might work though. I will fully admit you are far more an expert on workstations than I am, so if I am completely off on anything let me know, but the Quadro cards mainly come into play on high end 3D rendering applications and CAD type software correct? A lot of 'pro' Mac users mainly do Quark/Pagemaker (or what is it now, InDesign? Pagemaker was a better name...)/Photoshop and FincalCut(Pro) none of which really need even one Quadro, much less two.

Correct here, but see below; most run multihead and require multiple cards for this. (You can thank nVidia and ATI both on this one.) Most DTP folks will go ATI for the superior image quality, and ATI is even less happy with 8x slots - forget running one in 4x. Not to mention that Apple's made a critical error by not making the FireMV series cards an option; the FireMV's are excellent DTP cards, and right now it would make Apple just about the only place to get one in a system.

It is cheaper than I thought it would be, and for those who truly need it for work, chances are the company is going to foot the bill anyway, one Quadro plus Quad Xeon 5100 series should be enough to handle anything.

No, one Quadro is not enough. If you want to drive more than two displays, you do require multiple Quadros. (e.g. a triplehead based on 3450's requires two, period. You can confirm this with PNY Quadro Support or nVidia.) A lot of DTP folks will use multiple monitors, so they're in a bad spot. They also are generally ATI users, not nVidia users, due to ATI's superior image quality.

That said, let's talk price briefly. I can't compare purely apples to apples, because I don't have a usable dual Woodcrest board for workstations yet (waiting on Intel.) But I put it up against a recent quote I did. The Mac Pro ends up falling short on requirements - no SCSI, no dual Quadro 4500's, have to order additional displays as accessories plus a seperate warranty on those - but ends up at right around the same pricetag as the dual Opteron 285. (Yes, 285's. Shhhhhh..) Systems were configured as max clock dual dual-core, 8GB, RAID1 (the Opteron used 36GB 15000RPM U320's.) But without meeting requirements - specifically the dual Quadro 4500's and the SCSI (NOT FC!) - it gets shut out no matter what.

 

[osalcido]

Now Apple needs to come out with a "Mac Work" or something like that with a good gaming vid card, a Core 2 Duo EE chip in it, 4 GB RAM max, two HD slots and they need to price it from $1499-1999 depending on model.
.

you want a system with an Extreme Edition CPU that costs over a thousand dollars itself for $1499? Are you nuts?

 

[USMC2Hard4U]

People who are dissapointed, I cannot see why.

You have the ability to own a Machine now... that Has effectivly 12GHz of Power.

Dual Independent FSB's

A New Superior Ram Technology, and the ablility to expand your ram to 16GB, which is completly unheard of outside a server market...

And they kept the same nice looking case, however completly redeisgned the inside...

Amazing Machine!

I agree they need a Machine thats maybe 2 - 3 times bigger than the Mini, and has a 2.4GHz Conroe in it... That would be hot.

 

[synergyo1]

People who are dissapointed, I cannot see why.

You have the ability to own a Machine now... that Has effectivly 12GHz of Power.

Dual Independent FSB's

A New Superior Ram Technology, and the ablility to expand your ram to 16GB, which is completly unheard of outside a server market...

And they kept the same nice looking case, however completly redeisgned the inside...

Amazing Machine!

I agree they need a Machine thats maybe 2 - 3 times bigger than the Mini, and has a 2.4GHz Conroe in it... That would be hot.

Psh.. Wheres my iPhone! (haha)

 

[pr0pensity]

Can you use generic processors and graphics cards with the Mac Pro?

 

[CEpeep]

Can you use generic processors and graphics cards with the Mac Pro?

It'll work with any processor that's a drop-in replacement for a Woodcrest (only other Woodcrests right now), and you can flash the BIOS of most PC video cards to make them Mac cards.

 

[synergyo1]

Can you use generic processors and graphics cards with the Mac Pro?

If the processor can fit the socket then most likely yes. This is just going off what people have done with the Intel Mac Mini and Intel iMac.


As for the graphics card it is still a mystery. I would guess no since they'll probably use some altered ROM on the video cards since the system uses EFI instead of BIOS. A risky flash to the ROM might get it to work though.

Even if you could use some other video card where would you get driver support for it when running under OS X if its a specific card not offered by Apple?

 

[DaMaDo]

Is it possible for a vid card to be made to be compatible with both EFI and bios?
Could mac cards be compatible with PCs, but not vice versa?

BTW here's a link to the mac pro taken apart

 

[Rocketpig]

you want a system with an Extreme Edition CPU that costs over a thousand dollars itself for $1499? Are you nuts?

I said "ranging from $1499-1999". I figured people would assume that the processor would be part of the upgrade to the higher price. Obviously I was wrong to assume that.

 

[Black Morty Rackham]

The Mac Pro ends up falling short on requirements - no SCSI, no dual Quadro 4500's, have to order additional displays as accessories plus a seperate warranty on those - but ends up at right around the same pricetag as the dual Opteron 285.

Do people still demand SCSI? Why? Between four internal hard drives, Firewire 800, a fiber connection for external RAID systems and Xsan, SCSI seems more obsolete than ever. And the amount of people who demand dual 4500s is probably limited. Most people who'd even consider a Mac Pro are probably satisfied with dual 30" monitors.

A New Superior Ram Technology, and the ablility to expand your ram to 16GB, which is completly unheard of outside a server market...

The ability to upgrade to 16+ gigabytes of RAM has been around for a while in the workstation market. The last-generation Power Mac G5 could also take 16 gigs of RAM.

 

[AreEss]

Do people still demand SCSI? Why? Between four internal hard drives, Firewire 800, a fiber connection for external RAID systems and Xsan, SCSI seems more obsolete than ever. And the amount of people who demand dual 4500s is probably limited. Most people who'd even consider a Mac Pro are probably satisfied with dual 30" monitors.

Actually, there a lot more people who need SCSI for retrieving older data and files than you think. By a lot. If there weren't, and SCSI wasn't superior anyways, nobody would make SCSI anything. (SCSI owns the workstation market still, by the way. SATA is too slow. Deal.) And you're sure as hell not going to spend over $2500 getting a single tape VXA drive and another $10K-25K to have all your DLT-IV tapes converted, when you've already got a $10K autochanger and library. Same for dual 4500's - again, you NEED two to drive more than two displays PERIOD. And saying you can just use 7300's, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you'd love to have.

The ability to upgrade to 16+ gigabytes of RAM has been around for a while in the workstation market. The last-generation Power Mac G5 could also take 16 gigs of RAM.

... so I shouldn't mention the rack-sides are up to 128GB?

 

[NulloModo]

Psh.. Wheres my iPhone! (haha)

If only Apple would make a PDA phone. I have a HP hw6515 and I will be the first to admit PocketPC sucks ass, Palm is far better, but I paid $600 for the thing so I am going to use it. If Apple could manage to make a phone that is as user friendly as the iPod they would have an instant best seller on their hands.

 

[osalcido]

I said "ranging from $1499-1999". I figured people would assume that the processor would be part of the upgrade to the higher price. Obviously I was wrong to assume that.

youre still an idiot for think 1999$...

a single top range card costs about 5-600 bucks.... unless you're gonna put a 6800GT with your extreme edition conroe, $1999 is out of the question

 

[TheMaXs]

No, one Quadro is not enough. [...] no dual Quadro 4500's

According to MacWorld it is indeed possible to use two Quadros in the Mac Pros:

In the Power Mac, each PCI Express slot had a set bandwidth, expressed in terms of lanes—the graphics slots was the fastest at 16x, with one 8x slot and two 4x slots as well. With the Mac Pro, Apple says that when you boot the computer after installing a new PCI Express card, the OS will let you choose the amount of bandwidth to dedicate to that slot. Apple told us that the total amount of bandwidth available to the PCI Express bus is less on the Mac Pro than on the Power Mac, but said the ability to direct that bandwidth as needed should make up for such a shortcoming. They also told us that there’s more power (total wattage) available to the PCI Express bus, letting you power two Nvidia Quadro FX 4500 graphics cards.

 

[Rocketpig]

youre still an idiot for think 1999$...

a single top range card costs about 5-600 bucks.... unless you're gonna put a 6800GT with your extreme edition conroe, $1999 is out of the question

Since when does Apple offer ANYTHING top of the line (other than processor) in their base line price?

Yeah, I'm the idiot.

 

[Rocketpig]

And a good/great vid card is about $300-400, not $500-600.

 

[a ronin]

Actually, there a lot more people who need SCSI for retrieving older data and files than you think. By a lot. If there weren't, and SCSI wasn't superior anyways, nobody would make SCSI anything. (SCSI owns the workstation market still, by the way. SATA is too slow. Deal.) And you're sure as hell not going to spend over $2500 getting a single tape VXA drive and another $10K-25K to have all your DLT-IV tapes converted, when you've already got a $10K autochanger and library. Same for dual 4500's - again, you NEED two to drive more than two displays PERIOD. And saying you can just use 7300's, well, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you'd love to have.



... so I shouldn't mention the rack-sides are up to 128GB?

I don't know what the Fck you're talking about, but your eloquence is impressive.

Now. Can you tell me if the Mac Pro's motherboard will take memory in different capacities? With 8 slots available, I would rather fill the remaining 7 (or 6?) slots with 512MB modules and save a few bucks. Regarding the GPU, what's the barrier in making a "PC" card compatibile? Having that much power and a mediocre GPU to run your games is a slap in the face.

 

[Black Morty Rackham]

SCSI owns the workstation market still, by the way. SATA is too slow. Deal.

Whose workstations? Very few of the 3D graphics people I know use SCSI. Besides, SATA can transfer data at 300 megabytes per second. That's pretty fast. With dual Raptors, you get real-world speeds of about 250 megabytes per second. More than enough speed for anyone but the most demanding HD-video editors.

Actually, there a lot more people who need SCSI for retrieving older data and files than you think.

Apple do not care about people who need old technology. There were a lot of people who were upset they couldn't use their old media anymore when Apple stopped shipping floppy drives with their computers. Did that change anything?

Same for dual 4500's - again, you NEED two to drive more than two displays PERIOD.

I'll reserve judgement on this until I see benchmarks on it.

... so I shouldn't mention the rack-sides are up to 128GB?

What the hell does that have to do with anything? All I said was that 16 gigabytes in commodity workstations is nothing new.

Now. Can you tell me if the Mac Pro's motherboard will take memory in different capacities? With 8 slots available, I would rather fill the remaining 7 (or 6?) slots with 512MB modules and save a few bucks. Regarding the GPU, what's the barrier in making a "PC" card compatibile? Having that much power and a mediocre GPU to run your games is a slap in the face.

I'm pretty sure you have to pair up the memory modules in the Mac Pro. Other than that, you can stick whatever quantities you like in it.

 

[a ronin]

Whose workstations? Very few of the 3D graphics people I know use SCSI. Besides, SATA can transfer data at 300 megabytes per second. That's pretty fast. With dual Raptors, you get real-world speeds of about 250 megabytes per second. More than enough speed for anyone but the most demanding HD-video editors.



Apple do not care about people who need old technology. There were a lot of people who were upset they couldn't use their old media anymore when Apple stopped shipping floppy drives with their computers. Did that change anything?



I'll reserve judgement on this until I see benchmarks on it.



What the hell does that have to do with anything? All I said was that 16 gigabytes in commodity workstations is nothing new.





I'm pretty sure you have to pair up the memory modules in the Mac Pro. Other than that, you can stick whatever quantities you like in it.

Have to or encouraged to? Sure pairs might yeild optimal performance, but I'd rather just throw in whatever ram I can afford.

 

[USMC2Hard4U]

Im ready to buy... but my concern is I want this thing now... but I can only get a 7300 GT NOW , I have to wait 5 - 8 weeks for a 1900 XT... Which I would much rather have.

So I am at a catch 22.

I need to know about other card compatability. I will buy a 1900 XT off newegg or from a local computer store if I can pop it in my Mac Pro.... there are a number of people who own these computers already... someone test it out for us.

DO IT NOW.

 

[mrweasel]

as soon as mine shows up tomorrow, I've got an x300 SE that I'm gonna slap in there to see if it works..Not going to chance my 7900GT...sadly I haven't seen anyone who got theirs today try it

 

[Biest]

Im ready to buy... but my concern is I want this thing now... but I can only get a 7300 GT NOW , I have to wait 5 - 8 weeks for a 1900 XT... Which I would much rather have.

So I am at a catch 22.

I need to know about other card compatability. I will buy a 1900 XT off newegg or from a local computer store if I can pop it in my Mac Pro.... there are a number of people who own these computers already... someone test it out for us.

DO IT NOW.

Newegg doesn't have the one you need, they only have the Windows compatible version. you have to go to the apple store online, macmall, etc. and buy the one you want there

you can get it at the apple store here
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APP...JDoJV3pkGDvt1aJOpQkA/2.0.19.1.0.8.25.7.11.0.3
but it also takes 3-5 weeks

FYI

Everybody who has the X1900XT config has to wait just like you

 

[Keon]

Awesome! I wanted a 30" as well, but they will be releasing new and improved monitors next month. =O

Might want to hold off on that 30".

Thanks for the heads-up!

In my case, I've been waiting for 8 months to get a new mac. I think I'll be okay with the current display. If the new ones have HDMI with HDCP, then I'll just have to skip all those expensive blue-ray and HD-DVD discs ..