Sounds like we are on the same page my man.
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AMD Counter-Strikes Itself, Pulls Driver After Anti-Lag Feature Causes CS2 Bans
- Thread starter Lakados
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Nvidia does not do Reflex at the driver level, it is engine level and needs to be integrated into your game at an engine level.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1-zR_AV28g
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In all fairness to those bans it was because people were doing things like this.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rftZO90Y62I
Gideon
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New tech causes new issues. They pulled it once they found out and I am sure they will release a fixed version. Drama over it here, is a bit over the top, though I did enjoy the title to the thread, at least it was funny.
UnknownSouljer
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Did that result in bans?
It resulted in a lot of games, putting out a lot of memos for weeks saying if you use these after this date we will ban you so stop using them because you are all using them to do things we don't want you to. And it did result in some bans after said date, Rust had a bunch I remember because you could just remove the Night from the game with it. But again it was after like 2 weeks of notices leading up to it. But yes there were some bans, on those who missed the memos or used them anyway thinking "How would they know".
Not that I'm aware of, but I think games can now opt to only allow a very limited subset of effects. It's super gimped in some games now, so there's nothing to really abuse.
I’m sure they can fix it, and then they can work with developers to get it integrated into the games correctly without hijacking the graphics API.
I like that devs for most online FPS games were apparently Xcreting telling players to not enable AL+ when the drivers go live because it will result in bans. Many of those Xcretions went up before the drivers launched so it was something AMD likely knew was going to happen and they pushed it anyways.
Twisted Kidney
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I guess it's up to software makers to test AMDs internal drivers and retroactively redesign their software to work with the almost irrelevant video card company's latest drivers?
Even if it was every other company that was supposed to make sure AMD drivers work it doesn't matter. AMD made more drivers that broke more stuff. That's what's going to matter in the next five years when people research video cards and find the threads about this. I think this is AMD having growing pains, their hardware has been really good of late, the fact that so much of their performance is out of their hands is a problem that takes time and a shit load of money to solve.
That's ignoring CPU supply problems that stem mostly from AMD being beholden TSMC for pretty much everything.
DukenukemX
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Again, I don't see this as AMD's fault, considering these anti-cheats don't work so well to begin with. Especially since the output wasn't changed, just how the dll files were altered which is how these anti-cheats detect cheats. AMD doesn't have the same marketing influence as Nvidia who got everyone to implement Nvidia's Reflex into games. As a Linux user I have access to latencyflex to inject anti-lag into games that already support Reflex, but it also risks a ban in games for the same reason. Kinda hard to implement engine timing markers without making the game developers do it themselves. We've seen how "easy" it's been for developers to implement DLSS and FSR, so it made sense for AMD to implement it into the driver level to avoid needing developers to do it. Most likely AMD will likely get their Anti-Lag approach whitelisted. I can't see their method of detouring calls to continue to work without it being whitelisted.
AMD chose to implement Anti-Lag+ by circumventing the API, while numerous developers and their own documentation was all screaming “don’t you ducking dare”.
But that’s a slippery slope, because how do developers then check those drivers haven’t been tampered with by a 3’rd party?
Do you want Anti-Cheat to not only verify game integrity but also have to run low enough in your system to verify driver integrity?
That’s a big security ask, APIs exist for a reason and there should be no commercial need to circumvent them. Either build within the API, or build a new API, but don’t go completely off-script and tell the rest of the world to just deal with it.
AMD built and deployed a fundamentally broken tool, it’s 100% on them.
To make it even worse AMD is marketing it as a feature to bring you a competitive edge in online FPS titles, those very titles that were banning players, whose developers were warning users while the feature was still in the preview drivers that it is a bad thing that will likely result in them being banned.
This whole situation and the way AMD launched it screams, "We promised investors we would have this feature out in Q3, this is the last patch day in Q3, fucking send it! We'll figure out the shit later".
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Bold of you to assume they playtested it.
Bans are rarely immediate so they catch at many at possible because nobody knows it's detected yet.
It also then allows for them to collect multiple instances of the infractions so users aren't being banned from a single false positive, but repeated infractions.
DukenukemX
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Do digitally signed drivers mean nothing today? They don't, but they should at least for this situation.
No, because they don't work. I'd rather have a moderator determine if someone is cheating. As a Linux user, they don't work on Linux either. How many games do you play online that you find online cheaters? All online games have cheaters because anti-cheat systems don't work.
View: https://youtu.be/4nqzFs9nlBM?si=W6q0vWlxReZSgf6A
Would be nice if Anti-Lag was built into DX12 and Vulkan. Would also be nice if DLSS and FSR were also built into DX12 and Vulkan. Microsoft and the Kronos Group have a lot to catch up on.
So who knew this would result in a ban? If AMD said this would result in a ban before all this happened, then it's on AMD. If developers knew then it's on developers.
No doubt, as this was a knee jerk reaction to Nvidia's software. This needed more testing, but doesn't change that anti-cheat systems in games are flawed.
Developers told users and AMD while it was in trial.
What would you suppose the developers did different?
You talk about whitelists but don’t understand how they work, you can’t whitelist something that is actively hidden from the software.
By implementing it the way AMD has, the anti cheat sees data sent into the graphics render pipeline, and it can see the data coming out, but it has no means of knowing what is happening inside. Anti Cheat doesn’t have access to that level of system details, it simply knows that data out does not match data in and it has no means of knowing what has been doing the tampering only that it has been tampered with.
You can white list drivers and use signatures and anti cheat can see OK, those are valid drivers no problem, but then what? It can’t see Anti-Lag+ that works inside the drivers so should it just stop monitoring the render pipe when AMD graphic driver is greater than version x.y.z?
Because that would be ripe for abuse.
Anti Cheat software isn’t perfect, but what AMD is trying to do with their AL+ implementation is exactly what cheat tool developers have been doing for years.
Hacking the game and the servers is hard the anti cheat knows what that data should look like, so you hack mouse drivers, keyboard drivers, GPU and other system drivers. Signatures are pretty easy to fake especially when the people using those cheats are more than happy to root and compromise their systems to run those cheats.
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However if you go back and read what I said I was talking about nvidia freestyle and that is implemented at the driver level
And was getting people banned because it was screwing with things and people were using it to screw with things.However if you go back and read what I said I was talking about nvidia freestyle and that is implemented at the driver level
That fact is not beyond me, far from it.... Just saying both companies play the same game.... It just seems like NV gets a free pass because they are "God".
The thing that kills me around here is how biased people are to one product or another. I just use whatever works for my needs. The issue with the games that have Reflex enabled and is coded into the engine would make in unlikely for a competing company's tech to make it into the same game. That is where the AMD implementation comes into play. I agree that it was executed poorly but at the same time does not mean the tech is evil.
Hell there are games on Steam and Epic that include No-cd Cracks from around the net to make them work without the CD. I trust that tech a hell of a lot less that what is going on here.
t1337duder
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I find the story ironic because hacks for CS are abundant, yet the only people getting banned are AMD users trying to use a feature.
Nvidia has big pockets stuff with cash.
For non networked or non-multiplier games, this feature can be very useful. As for CS Go, obviously don’t use it until a remedy or method to allow is available. I rather have a non game specific mechanism if available vice current more restrictive way that Nvidia does it.
Maybe AMD should only allow this feature to be used in a game profile only, no global switch. Use a game profile to ensure it is used only in games the user wants.
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ZeroBarrier
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You aren't surprised though, right? AMD has an extensive track record of fuck ups that lay squarely on their own shoulders.
Also, it's absolutely wild how a thread about AMD fuck ups continually gets the, "but Nvidia this, Nvidia that" comments. Getting defensive for a corporation is just ludicrous. People have been using this meme recently to describe people defending YouTube blocking ad-blockers, but it conveys the sentiment quite well concerning this.
It's more like multi-billion or multi-trillion dollar company.
ZeroBarrier
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Is it though? I ask because they act like the company is some type of underdog.
I mean they are, by definition, the underdog ... and have been for many years. Just because they're a gargantuan company doesn't mean they're not an underdog. But they will continue being the underdog if they keep having the absolute shite issues with hardware and drivers year after year. I genuinely tried to give them a shot recently ... two shots actually ... and was disappointed ... twice. It's Intel and NVIDIA for me for the foreseeable future. I'd rather pay more to not have to experience so much of this garbage. At least they suck far less with their chips for the Xbox and PlayStation consoles.
ZeroBarrier
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Well, isn't Intel technically the real underdog here?
Intel owns 70% of the CPU market, so not really, no. AMD finally catching up has lit a finder under their asses, though. Intel actually has competition again.
DukenukemX
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Pu a message on players screen that the drivers installed are not supported and then prevent the game from running.
If people are banned for it then the software did detect it.
Then it's a flawed system. The video I linked has countless CS:GO Fortnite players using aim hacks and wall hacks. It isn't the game that detects the cheats, but often the streamer who idiotically left their cheats visible. Some of these players make it to tournaments where they are actually caught cheating, because finally human eyes can watch them. The cheating tools themselves are so good that the anti-cheat tools can't detect them. Because the anti-cheat software is so flawed and nobody wants to hire moderators to look out for cheaters, it's often up to the community to report cheaters.
Then AMD can do what good cheating software does and find a work around.
I'm not sure what cheating software does today, but they exist and work, which modern games are riddled with them. Anti-cheat software is just an economical way of fighting cheaters, but not a good way of fighting cheaters. You need moderators to fight cheaters effectively, without banning innocent players. For me it prevents Linux users from enjoying certain online games, because nothing in Linux is what anti-cheat software expects.
View: https://youtu.be/kJ22SQIhEs8?si=8DwDjaUpEOn59poh
Yes a message that says hey your using an RX 7000 GPU you can’t launch this game, good bye.
The anti cheat doesn’t detect anti lag plus it detects that input and output data don’t match, the developers know the cause of that mismatch because they did their work but the software doesn’t. Software only sees 1+1=3, lots of things can cause the data to not match the software can’t differentiate them.
Good cheating software replaces windows components, roots your system, takes over certificate stores, and installs driver hooks, partitions hard drives, and isolates of memory. It completely roots and compromises the system so it runs lower and separately than anything the OS is running.
Anti Cheat is a lowest common denominator that isn’t going away, instead of repeating NVidia’s 4 year old mistakes AMD should have done something new.
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Gideon
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Only a simple lesson that people continue to fail regardless of the vendor. Don't update your video card driver right away, unless your having a issue or playing some new game that came out then there is no reason to update the driver right away. Just like windows updates, let some other sucker test the waters for you.
Well I mean AMD did do an entire marketing campaign around the feature and the games that were getting it for that driver release. And as long as you didn’t turn AL+ on the drivers are much better than the previous version.
But they launched it in Q3 as promised promises have been kept.
It's become almost a spectacle, observing supporters of one faction ardently pointing fingers at the other, all while being oblivious to the missteps within their cherished company. Had AMD not chosen to parade its 'innovative' feature design akin to the tactics employed by cheaters, bypassing Valve's established systems, the white knights wouldn't be the ones bearing the brunt. At least Valve is extending its efforts to work with AMD to rectify the false bans induced by this misstep in coding on AMD's part.
So yeah, this sent me on several hours of watching how people fail at scams. Thanks for that!
GoodBoy
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Wow.. just, wow.
The stupidity...
AMD has been on a roll this year.
The stupidity...
AMD has been on a roll this year.
chameleoneel
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This is a big PR hit for AMD. I was pretty excited about Anti-Lag+.
IMO, Nvidia and AMD both, could be doing a lot more with their developer relationships. Each brand really should have a few people dedicated to maintaining those relationships and getting developers connected with their driver teams, early in any game's development. So that these features can be in more games and be implemented for the best possible outcomes.
As we've seen with both AMD and Nvidia features, simply adding external libraries, does not always bear good results. Even DLSS can look poor, if some care isn't taken beyond simply adding support for it.
IMO, Nvidia and AMD both, could be doing a lot more with their developer relationships. Each brand really should have a few people dedicated to maintaining those relationships and getting developers connected with their driver teams, early in any game's development. So that these features can be in more games and be implemented for the best possible outcomes.
As we've seen with both AMD and Nvidia features, simply adding external libraries, does not always bear good results. Even DLSS can look poor, if some care isn't taken beyond simply adding support for it.
staknhalo
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if only
DukenukemX
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Yes, and that's fine. That's a lot better than a ban.
So what? It doesn't change that people do it and it's still frequently done in online games. If the anti-cheat doesn't work, then it doesn't work. Also, banning players is a heavy handed approach to a system that depends on automation. In most cases, you can't even appeal the ban. You can't even use an SMAA injector without risking a ban.
Most likely AMD will find a fix for this, which won't be good for anti-cheating systems. The only route AMD could take is push developers to implement Anti-lag into their games, like Nvidia did with Reflex. AMD doesn't have the influence nor the capital to push for such a feature to be included in as many games as Nvidia does, so it makes sense to do what they did. AMD did fuck up, because obviously nobody did any testing to see if this will cause issues with playing games, but it doesn't mean anti-cheat systems are innocent either. Anti-cheat sucks.