Wanting SATA in every MB at this point would be similar to wanting a built in IDE controller on your MB
Uh huh. Point on the doll where SATA and cheap data storage hurt you. Some people might want more than a 1-2TB nvme drive for data.
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Wanting SATA in every MB at this point would be similar to wanting a built in IDE controller on your MB
It’s called a NAS. One machine in the house - ideal use case for a SATA expansion cardUh huh. Point on the doll where SATA and cheap data storage hurt you. Some people might want more than a 1-2TB nvme drive for data.
Absolutely amazing that someone can compare wanting SATA as the same as wanting IDE. What a bubble to live in.Some people might want more than a 1-2TB nvme drive for data.
It’s called a NAS. One machine in the house - ideal use case for a SATA expansion card
It’s called a NAS. One machine in the house - ideal use case for a SATA expansion card
Clients get NVME drives only.Uh huh. Point on the doll where SATA and cheap data storage hurt you. Some people might want more than a 1-2TB nvme drive for data.
Uhh, did you not read the post? I called out NAS as a SATA option, and it’s best done via expansion card.Ah hah so you do use SATA ports. Busted.
This guy gets itClients get NVME drives only.
Mass storage goes on the NAS server, and on that I'm not trusting any on board SATA. LSI SAS HBA's are the way to go.
Depends on the nas.Clients get NVME drives only.
Mass storage goes on the NAS server, and on that I'm not trusting any on board SATA. LSI SAS HBA's are the way to go.
Agreed, if your storage server isn’t running active scans to ensure data integrity and raid health then you are just asking for problems. SATA on some consumer board isn’t doing that. It’s the wrong tool for the job.Clients get NVME drives only.
Mass storage goes on the NAS server, and on that I'm not trusting any on board SATA. LSI SAS HBA's are the way to go.
Exactly. A common base or feature set simplifies software development. The ability to customize every facet of a PC sounds great until the moment of realization that it won't boot an operating system.In the past, parts of the CPU that we now take for granted, like FPU and L3 cache, were separate components that could be replaced or omitted as desired. Though it reduces flexibility, I for one am glad that all those things are now integrated. I'm sympathetic to the desire for simplicity, but integrating all these things actually makes things simpler by reducing the number of parts that are needed to implement those features (no need for connectors, wires, extra voltage regulators etc. that expansion cards need), as well as simplifying manufacturing.
Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, integrating something like a GPU sets a baseline that developers can aim for when writing software. Just like in the past a lot of software would avoid floating-point calculations because CPUs didn't have FPUs built in, so GPU acceleration today is considered an extra special feature because you can't rely on a given machine supporting the GPU features that you want to use. Once every PC has a basic GPU, it can be used as if it was just another instruction set, like SSE or AVX. In fact it might end up replacing those instruction sets, making CPUs simpler overall.
I had no idea about this. I often see people talk about turning BGR screens upside down and rotating the desktop in orger to get RGB ClearType., but if that breaks VRR, that's a non-starter.
I let the filesystem handle that (generally some version of ZFS, or OnTap, also storage spaces on one box). Controllers (with the exception of the box with adaptec cards) are just access methods.Agreed, if your storage server isn’t running active scans to ensure data integrity and raid health then you are just asking for problems. SATA on some consumer board isn’t doing that. It’s the wrong tool for the job.
Untill bugs/incompatibility with some drives forces you to go back to MBO's Intel SATA.Mass storage goes on the NAS server, and on that I'm not trusting any on board SATA. LSI SAS HBA's are the way to go.
Any storage controller is the wrong tool for the job.Agreed, if your storage server isn’t running active scans to ensure data integrity and raid health then you are just asking for problems. SATA on some consumer board isn’t doing that. It’s the wrong tool for the job.
I haven’t used SATA in most of my systems for years now — The only system that has SATA drives is my freenas. I put exclusively NVME in everything else, so sata gets disabled and has become dead transistors. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest to have to buy a SATA controller for my NAS, or buy a specific NAS MB. Wanting SATA in every MB at this point would be similar to wanting a built in IDE controller on your MB…
Agreed, if your storage server isn’t running active scans to ensure data integrity and raid health then you are just asking for problems. SATA on some consumer board isn’t doing that. It’s the wrong tool for the job.
You can’t; it’s funky. And storage spaces has an issue with raid 5/6 where you need to do the chunk and column calculations yourself compared to allocation size or performance is garbage. Fortunately the math is easy, but annoying. And 100% CLI for folks not happy with that.You don't need hardware RAID anymore. ZFS has better data protection and redundancy schemes, and something like Linux md RAID is perfectly fine here when scrubbing. I hear Windows now has something similar, although I am not sure you can boot off it.
They have to be integrated. People forget that when the FPU, CPU cache, etc were all separate on the board the latency was massive.In the past, parts of the CPU that we now take for granted, like FPU and L3 cache, were separate components that could be replaced or omitted as desired. Though it reduces flexibility, I for one am glad that all those things are now integrated. I'm sympathetic to the desire for simplicity, but integrating all these things actually makes things simpler by reducing the number of parts that are needed to implement those features (no need for connectors, wires, extra voltage regulators etc. that expansion cards need), as well as simplifying manufacturing.
Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, integrating something like a GPU sets a baseline that developers can aim for when writing software. Just like in the past a lot of software would avoid floating-point calculations because CPUs didn't have FPUs built in, so GPU acceleration today is considered an extra special feature because you can't rely on a given machine supporting the GPU features that you want to use. Once every PC has a basic GPU, it can be used as if it was just another instruction set, like SSE or AVX. In fact it might end up replacing those instruction sets, making CPUs simpler overall.
FPU, Cache, DRam controller, and related items are genuinely useful and improve performance. Integrated junk audio, Realtek lan, obsolete storage tech, low end iGPU, and related items are a different ball of wax.They have to be integrated. People forget that when the FPU, CPU cache, etc were all separate on the board the latency was massive.
These things weren't integrated just to screw over consumers and remove options. It was done because the closer you can make this stuff to the CPU, the faster the rest of the system is. So it only makes sense to put as much as possible on the CPU die itself.
I was still under the impression that ZFS and iSCSI don't mix, I can look at it for my next go around but for my next storage upgrade, I can at least look into it.You don't need hardware RAID anymore. ZFS has better data protection and redundancy schemes, and something like Linux md RAID is perfectly fine here when scrubbing. I hear Windows now has something similar, although I am not sure you can boot off it.
ZFS and iSCSI are fine - how the SLOG and L2ARC operate is slightly different (although they still do what they're supposed to do), and in fact, for synchronous workloads, it tends to be faster than NFS (something ZFS is still not insanely amazing at in a hybrid configuration - a SLOG is not a cache, just a buffer really, given how the transaction grouping/timing works).I was still under the impression that ZFS and iSCSI don't mix, I can look at it for my next go around but for my next storage upgrade, I can at least look into it.
It’s how I run my VMs on my ESXi box. Very happy with it.I was still under the impression that ZFS and iSCSI don't mix, I can look at it for my next go around but for my next storage upgrade, I can at least look into it.
Most software doesn't need an FPU. Unless you're doing something where floating-point performance is important, like gaming, then it's not really necessary. All the integrated "junk" is genuinely useful - at least I use most of it, and I'm pretty sure the majority of users do too.FPU, Cache, DRam controller, and related items are genuinely useful and improve performance. Integrated junk audio, Realtek lan, obsolete storage tech, low end iGPU, and related items are a different ball of wax.
That’s a somewhat nonsensical question. NVMe is a protocol to directly access flash media; while you could create a translation layer to talk to either of the standard optical formats, you wouldn’t really gain anything…?So, where are the NVME bluray burners? Some of us need the ability to make backups that can be kept offsite.
How so? Every disc i have ever burned is still readable going back to cdr from 1996.Oh. I see what you’re saying. Heh. Also, optical media for writing at home sucks for long term retention. But, good popoint.
I see people say all the time that optical media doesn't last, but i've got CD-R's burned back in the early 2000's that are still working without issue.How so? Every disc i have ever burned is still readable going back to cdr from 1996.
And the best part is I still have the ability to read them--without jumping thru hoops.
Have a bunch of tapes with no working tape drive.
If you just want off site storage, put a box in the remote location and copy via VPN? ( that’s what I do, backup to my parents house). Alternatively, use any one of the cloud storage services?So, where are the NVME bluray burners? Some of us need the ability to make backups that can be kept offsite.
You don't need hardware RAID anymore. ZFS has better data protection and redundancy schemes, and something like Linux md RAID is perfectly fine here when scrubbing. I hear Windows now has something similar, although I am not sure you can boot off it.
Let’s go through your list:Most software doesn't need an FPU. Unless you're doing something where floating-point performance is important, like gaming, then it's not really necessary. All the integrated "junk" is genuinely useful - at least I use most of it, and I'm pretty sure the majority of users do too.
But let's say you got your way and there was a desktop CPU and motherboard with nothing integrated that could possibly be left off. If I wanted to replicate the functionality of my current system by adding PCIe cards, I would need:
That's already far exceeded the number of PCIe slots on a full ATX board, and I haven't even included SATA and WiFi, which I can do without, and of course the secondary GPU which kicked this whole discussion off (and it would be more expensive and worse performance than an integrated one). It's also not including PCIe slots which are blocked by other things, e.g. to bring 12V and 5V from the PC's PSU out to external connectors for some special peripherals to use.
- 3 slots for a GPU
- 3 slots for USB (assuming 4 external ports per card, to match the 12 on my motherboard's rear IO panel)
- 1 slot for a sound card
- 1 slot for Ethernet
- 1 slot for Bluetooth
- 1 slot for NVME
Eh. That last point is easy. Cats/children can be a handful with cables around. I had to get a pair of Bluetooth headphones for exactly that reason. Also transferring the occasional pic from my phone via BT is handy.Let’s go through your list:
GPU - checks out.
USB - I believe I left a qualifier in there for 2-4 USB ports. If not, I’ll give you 4 ports being useful for being integrated so you have keyboard, mouse, 1 port for a USB hub, and 1 spare. The hub can easily be moved from system to system over the years, and I have one though I struggle to come up with a time I’ve actually used more than 4 ports. No expansion slots actually used here.
Sound. I have never used integrated sound, and I’ll go out on a limb and say the majority of enthusiasts don’t either. I’d be fine pulling my audigy out of the parts bin for connecting to a receiver, but since I had kids I’ve moved entirely to USB headset. Possibly an expansion slot used here.
WiFi vs Ethernet - pretty much mutually exclusive here. I’ve always used wired on my systems, but I’ve also had the luxury of being able to run cables. 1 expansion slot used here.
Nvme - note that I said no obsolete storage included. NVME isn’t obsolete, and a possible advantage of removing all the other junk is another NVME or two.
No slots used here.
Bluetooth - wtf do you use Bluetooth for on a desktop?!? I’ve never even considered needing this.
No slots used here.
CD-R and CD-RW were terrible for long term storage because the organic dye medium they used was prone to breaking down, the green and gold ones you could expect maybe 10 years out of more or less depending on humidity and temperature, the blue ones however used an inert dye and with the right conditions can be expected to have a shelf life of up to 100 years.Yeah same here I have discs going back 25 years, still read fine. Heck I found an old CD RW that are terrible for long term storage that I had put a bunch of old programs on back in the day that still read fine when I checked it.
Dunno what he uses, but for me it's headphones, keyboard, mouse, game controllers, etc.Bluetooth - wtf do you use Bluetooth for on a desktop?!? I’ve never even considered needing this.
No slots used here.
So before I had a wifi/BT am4 mobo I needed to get a pair of BT headphones for the aforementioned reasons. 1st I got one of those dongle things, I really didn't like the way they worked. I wanted something that worked like traditional bluetooth with pairing multiple devices and whatnot. For that I had to get a $50 pcie card. Worked great, but shortly after I got a good deal on my Taichi X570 and was able to return the wifi card, saving a nice $50.Never heard of a slot being taken up by bluetooth though.