Amazon CEO Andy Jassy threatens employees to return to office or "things are probably not going to work out for you"

Out of curiosity how much of Amazons work force comprises jobs that can work from home versus having to pee in a bottle or get fired warehouse workers and drive your own car into the grave delivering package for minimal money? Or are those groups not considered employees because they are contracted out from other companies or just straight classified as contractors?
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
Nah, as far as I know it's just tax reasons. I believe that many areas have started giving employers large tax breaks if they use their local offices enough. Even "boomer sensibilities" I doubt are enough to get companies to just start paying massive amounts of money to support unnecessary offices. After all, even if workers were like %75 as productive at home, some simple math tells you that if you're saving ~%25 on the cost of employing them, there's no point. But yeah: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-02-21/another-threat-to-work-from-home-tax-breaks

Long story short, there are many areas which essentially sprung up around commuting, so the theory is that without some sort of return to office mandate, those areas are slowly dying. By leveraging tax breaks, the companies get to spout all this BS about work culture and collaboration, while in reality they're just getting tax breaks, while the local areas to the office also profit from the essential tourism.

This also allows them to do "quiet cutting":
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/companies-are-now-quiet-cutting-employees/
Think about it, all you have to do is say that, "We want all people that do X to be located at Y". And then they just do this big Donkey Kong shrug when you say that the move is untenable for you, and they get to basically lay you off without any severance pay, because after all you're the one that "decided" to quit, right? So the truth is worse than anything you might think it is.
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This, the push for back to office is more about the real estate market, oil & gas companies and local companies to the areas who did not adapt during covid wanting money or more money so force everyone back to long drives for crappy commutes, taking away from their personal time and life.

Sure, some people work better in an office, great, let them work in an office, other work better at home, great let them work at home. All of their performance metrics should be measurable for most jobs anyways so they can easily see who is productive and who isnt. Instead, punish everyone....
 
MrGuvernment said:
This, the push for back to office is more about the real estate market, oil & gas companies and local companies to the areas who did not adapt during covid wanting money or more money so force everyone back to long drives for crappy commutes, taking away from their personal time and life.
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That the politician and commerce chamber push, but the Amazon, Google, Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, etc... ? Do you think those lobbys are paying them under the table, they are not company easy to manipulate.
 
MrGuvernment said:
This, the push for back to office is more about the real estate market, oil & gas companies and local companies to the areas who did not adapt during covid wanting money or more money so force everyone back to long drives for crappy commutes, taking away from their personal time and life.
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Bingo. Oil went to negative numbers per barrel during the lockdowns…. Taking commuters off the road for the most part destroyed an industry for a time in just weeks. Instead of learning from that it’s back to the status quo ASAP!
I was “essential” and had to go into the office for a while until the company started to let some people wfh temporarily and just no one was on the road. It was surreal.
 
TheHig said:
I’m a mid level office worker and my WFH experience was incredible. As an hourly employee I got an hour of commute time and my hour long lunch back as me time. I saved about 2k in commute related expenses. Saved money on food , clothing and more. Essentially nearly a 3k raise raise that year in reduced expenses. I was continued to be a top 20% performer just like in the office. WFH was for me the most balanced work/ life arrangement I’ve ever experienced. I took walks on breaks and lunch in my neighborhood which is much nicer and walkable than a parking lot. I did chores like laundry and even cut my grass or ran to the grocery store during my lunch hour as well. All meaning that after my work day much if my household chores were done. No wasted time in traffic and burning fuel and time commuting. Basically amazing. I am certainly not opposed to a 2-3 day in office hybrid solution but after returning to the 5 or 6 days a week commute grind I have been looking at options to leave that behind. I’ve been at my current employer for 16 years and that are 100% opposed to WFH for the majority of roles.
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it is amazing all this "net zero / go green / save the planet" government and companies are pushing, but, let force everyone back into the largest polluters there are just so we can get butts in chairs and keep the real estate investors reach and oil & gas companies.
 
LukeTbk said:
What do you think the Oil lobby said to Amazon or said to the politician to say Amazon (or Facebook, Tesla, google, apple, Microsoft, Disney, etc... they pretty much all decided to have back to office measure) whats the link ?
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Put it together, investors...those businesses...they have real estate investments, investments in oil & gas, those 2 alone would push most of those rich buggers up above to force back to work to keep their bottom line growing at stupid levels...it was never about "our" work life balance and giving us a better choice, they did it cause they had to, government regulations for covid, and all the companies acted all great about it and how awesome it would be. Then covid ended and the same companies that said they would keep WFH or Hybrid, are doing a 180, and all hands back in the office!
 
freeagentt said:
Your comment tells me that if this was the jungle you would not make it.

In the old world, if you worked from home it was because you were on welfare.
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And by yours I can tell you weren't born on a farm, unlike most of the "old world" types and some of us relics. WFH old school. At least we had tractors in my time.

Paid by the hour? Crazy talk.

Lucky for me some of us knuckle draggers figured out enough of this "tech" stuff to manage in this new fangled world.

Self employed, independent contractor 🤜 .
 
sfsuphysics said:
Out of curiosity how much of Amazons work force comprises jobs that can work from home versus having to pee in a bottle or get fired warehouse workers and drive your own car into the grave delivering package for minimal money? Or are those groups not considered employees because they are contracted out from other companies or just straight classified as contractors?
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AWS should just be spun into its own company at this point. That probably accounts for a pretty large portion.
 
TheHig said:
Bingo. Oil went to negative numbers per barrel during the lockdowns…. Taking commuters off the road for the most part destroyed an industry for a time in just weeks. Instead of learning from that it’s back to the status quo ASAP!
I was “essential” and had to go into the office for a while until the company started to let some people wfh temporarily and just no one was on the road. It was surreal.
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I worked for a natural gas company in the early 2010's and I heard during COVID they layed off 20% of their workforce. I then remember filling up my crossover for $12 during COVID so I guess it fits.

The thing going on now is that the healthcare companies (certain segments) that made bank during the COVID years are now leveling off and have to "reorganize" to fulfill their new "strategy". i.e. "we need to still make bank somehow, better start laying off people we just told were instrumental to our vision!"

bigdogchris said:
And the whole "come into the office or your done" philosophy is just a great way to clear out people who you really don't want anyways.
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I guess if you had underlying issues to begin with before WFH was a thing during COVID, and as you mentioned, you did.

WFH increased our productivity, and the people who would have left over a return to the office mandate (it didn't happen, they closed our office instead), would have been the good ones.

See this is again where I say it's hard to make blanket statements. The people at our place who were complaining (in other areas of the country) were the ones who were about to lose productivity time to 1 to 3 hours of commute time per day.
 
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Just today a guy I work with put in his notice. He is 5 or so years from retirement and took a 1 day in the office and 4 days a home per week job and is getting a 20% raise and better 401k match from the new company. We have a decent job and work for a national 90k plus employee outfit and they didn’t even consider a counter to keep him on. What’s worse is he is one of 4 people in a 15 person department that is a “go to person” when people have questions or need help. Myself included. I’m happy for him because he is going to make a good earnings push before retiring vs riding it out here with little hope for a raise. However losing his experience and expertise is going to suck until the rest of us get good so to speak.
 
TheHig said:
Just today a guy I work with put in his notice. He is 5 or so years from retirement and took a 1 day in the office and 4 days a home per week job and is getting a 20% raise and better 401k match from the new company. We have a decent job and work for a national 90k plus employee outfit and they didn’t even consider a counter to keep him on. What’s worse is he is one of 4 people in a 15 person department that is a “go to person” when people have questions or need help. Myself included. I’m happy for him because he is going to make a good earnings push before retiring vs riding it out here with little hope for a raise. However losing his experience and expertise is going to suck until the rest of us get good so to speak.
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Most people don't realize their worth until they get an offer from a new job. Many companies are bad about that. After about 5years a some companies offer more for a position than what they pay their current employees in that said position
 
Yeah we just hired 3 kids out of college and they make like $3 /hr less than me. Being paid what the position is worth is fine so I think it’s completely reasonable for these new hires to get a decent wage. The bullshit is that rising tides aren’t lifting all boats and legacy employees with a wealth of experience and industry knowledge don’t get raises. Basically I was just told to get my next pay bump via the in house classes /testing and for me it’s the last one available in my dept. So it’s about 2 years and I have to look for another roll within the company or externally to make more money. That or keep doing what I’m doing and lose money every year to inflation and benefits cost increases. Obviously this is the struggle for everyone and I’m far from alone in this.
 
It won't work. That's ok there will be a new something to come along and be successful for a while.
 
Darunion said:
Most people don't realize their worth until they get an offer from a new job. Many companies are bad about that. After about 5years a some companies offer more for a position than what they pay their current employees in that said position
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My cushy government job wants us back in the office full time by the 18th. I put in my 2 weeks notice yesterday. Had no plans on leaving (money is great and so are the benefits) but received an offer I couldn't refuse and removing our WFH was the final straw for me. It was a great 3 years though, cruise control workflow and maxed out my contributions while saving money on gas and food. Not to mention I barely touched my sick leave balance in those 3 years so I'll be cashing out with almost 3 months pay. I was able to work from home while sick so never tapped into it.
 
The company I am at these days happens to have made RTO pretty easy. Yesterday I experienced driving to work with everybody back from vacation and kids going to school. That was not fun so I really appreciate the flexibility they still allow. Really a pretty good place to work overall. Maybe I should be thankful it's not Amazon.
 
TheHig said:
Yeah we just hired 3 kids out of college and they make like $3 /hr less than me. Being paid what the position is worth is fine so I think it’s completely reasonable for these new hires to get a decent wage. The bullshit is that rising tides aren’t lifting all boats and legacy employees with a wealth of experience and industry knowledge don’t get raises. Basically I was just told to get my next pay bump via the in house classes /testing and for me it’s the last one available in my dept. So it’s about 2 years and I have to look for another roll within the company or externally to make more money. That or keep doing what I’m doing and lose money every year to inflation and benefits cost increases. Obviously this is the struggle for everyone and I’m far from alone in this.
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That's the game - sounds like it's time to polish the resume.

I 100% lingered too long at my last job and should have moved on sooner. New job was over 40% salary bump, now fully remote, they cover the cost of my internet, etc.
 
MrGuvernment said:
This, the push for back to office is more about the real estate market, oil & gas companies and local companies to the areas who did not adapt during covid wanting money or more money so force everyone back to long drives for crappy commutes, taking away from their personal time and life.
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This right here. I wouldn't say it's for companies but their local economy. A lot of people don't realize how the automobile brought about a lot of new industries, and having people work from home would demolish them. If you don't commute, then no tolls and with no tolls no rolls. No gas consumed, which hurts gas stations, including those stupid convenience stores as these stores depend on people getting gas. Automobiles take less wear, which means less visits to your local mechanic. Public transportation also takes a hit, because those systems still run with or without people using them. NYC took a massive hit, and is after toll skippers instead of realizing they lost a lot of people.
LukeTbk said:
What do you think the Oil lobby said to Amazon or said to the politician to say Amazon (or Facebook, Tesla, google, apple, Microsoft, Disney, etc... they pretty much all decided to have back to office measure) whats the link ?
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It's more about cities income than corporations influence. NYC tax revenue took a $7 Billion decline due to a lot of empty real estate. If you can work from home then who gets your income tax? NJ and NY are fighting over this. As a NJ person myself, this does suck because a lot of those NYC people are coming here. It's why housing here has tripled in price for the past 3 years. It's also why Texas is so popular, because they have no income tax there. You can't compare the cost of living in NJ vs Texas. If you could work from home, you could save yourself thousands by working in Texas instead of NJ or NY. So it's local governments best interest to get your ass back in the office.
MrGuvernment said:
it is amazing all this "net zero / go green / save the planet" government and companies are pushing, but, let force everyone back into the largest polluters there are just so we can get butts in chairs and keep the real estate investors reach and oil & gas companies.
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We all know no politician really cares about the environment. Working from home seems like the best hack ever to decrease emissions. Instead you have people clamoring for more trains and walkable cities, but mention work from home and they all foam at the mouth. People favor convenience and with work from home it's the most convenient with zero C02 emissions. Sometimes I think these people are just really into trains and love living in cities.
 
The economy, local or otherwise, is a series of interactions/exchanges that take place everyday.

It's not just about the corporate office space going unused. It's also about the mom and pop bakery you stopped in to get a coffee and donut everyday before work. The bar you went to around the corner with friends for drinks after work. Those places hurt too with WFH.
 
staknhalo said:
The economy, local or otherwise, is a series of interactions/exchanges that take place everyday.

It's not just about the corporate office space going unused. It's also about the mom and pop bakery you stopped in to get a coffee and donut everyday before work. The bar you went to around the corner with friends for drinks after work. Those places hurt too with WFH.
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The smart ones adapted and opened new locations, or moved locations into residential areas, those who could of course, and are now doing well...at least around where I am.

The government forced lock downs did more damage to small businesses than WFH did. But also on that note, why should everyone else have to change their life, to support someone else's if they do not adjust to change?
 
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MrGuvernment said:
The smart ones adapted and opened new locations, or moved locations into residential areas, those who could of course, and are now doing well...at least around where I am.
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And now apply that to employees.

"The smart ones adapted and got jobs closer to where they live, or moved closer to or into the city where the job was."

This does indeed cut both ways.

The employee and customer are part of the economy too, and don't hold all the power in this situation.

Edit: I don't fault anyone trying to stay WFH - I just recognize the legit reasons against and realize this isn't some 'workers rise up' thing like people wanna pretend. It's just a game of poker. Hope they buy your bluff all you want, no problem. Just recognize you might also have to fold or that you just might straight up lose. Whether that's WFH or the job itself.
 
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its funny some of these companies like google have always talked about trying to reduce carbon footprint and reducing pollution and being green etc. but when presented with one of the biggest options to reduce emissions, Nope F that, everyone needs to start commuting back in the office!
 
Newbie_52 said:
its funny some of these companies like google have always talked about trying to reduce carbon footprint and reducing pollution and being green etc. but when presented with one of the biggest options to reduce emissions, Nope F that, everyone needs to start commuting back in the office!
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It is like the 5 day 8hour work week. It's just how its always been done so why try new things when good enough is where things are comfortable. We tend to have an aversion to change.
 
Luckly, I have been 100% remote work for 3 years now (I was only 1 of 2 people left who kept that ability, mostly because I would just have quit, screw pointless commutes). Plus, our company got bought earlier this year (fun times) by a company that has at least 50% of their workforce remote and all over the country. So, since the base is WFH now, I stayed WFH and they completely got rid of whatever office I had left that wasn't pillaged and gave it to someone else (which sealed the deal for sure). I can see office work being great for people who are starting their career or collaboration depending on role, but for what I do now, I get way more done at home, while gaining 2+ hours of my life back everyday. :) I find those companies pushing for work in an office (with no real reason) just have a bunch of middle management micro managers who have no clue what to do without pointlessly looking over people's shoulders pretending to have valuable input. Worth noting, I live in the engineering world.
 
I'm a federal employee here in DC. Got directed to return to office 3 days per week a few months ago, which is fine for me, but it almost seems pointless because everyone migrated to teams meetings instead of in person meetings. So I go into the office to attend meetings virtually......... I rarely interact with anyone in-person.

I'm a data scientist so everything I do is on a computer.
 
Current federal leases are ~$5.8B per year. Add state, county, local leases and asking a bunch of gov't ee's to WFH permanently would have an impact on commercial leasing. Wouldn't surprise me if some are actively "lobbying" for gov't to increase their expenditures.
 
staknhalo said:
lol gay

but relevant ☝️

https://www.wired.com/story/grindrs...imatum-gutted-a-uniquely-queer-space-in-tech/
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"The policy would have forced many of them to relocate to Los Angeles, Chicago, or San Francisco."

A serious punishment.

Edit: I realize this is a bit of topic drift but: "accusing the company of unlawfully suppressing discussion of working conditions in company chats" If you're doing this on the company's servers, you're not very smart.

Edit^2: "Now that most of the engineering team is gone, he says, “we have already run into quite a few issues where we simply don’t know who to reach out to.”" YGBKM and suggests some deeper problems, like "don't they have an internal ticketing system to report problems?"
 
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1_rick said:
"The policy would have forced many of them to relocate to Los Angeles, Chicago, or San Francisco."

A serious punishment.

Edit: I realize this is a bit of topic drift but: "accusing the company of unlawfully suppressing discussion of working conditions in company chats" If you're doing this on the company's servers, you're not very smart.

Edit^2: "Now that most of the engineering team is gone, he says, “we have already run into quite a few issues where we simply don’t know who to reach out to.”" YGBKM and suggests some deeper problems, like "don't they have an internal ticketing system to report problems?"
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I'm gussing they probably do, but no one is on the teams being assigned tickets anymore.
 
A data counterpoint. I guess there is just a bit of regret calling every one back to the office.

https://apple.news/AeqUPDfflTTS0GJxf6VO2dQ

If only managers had taken the hint. Four in five (80%) of bosses told workplace software firm Envoy that had they had a better grasp on their workplace data, they would have taken a starkly different approach to their return-to-office plans. The problem, they said: They didn’t have access to data that would help them make their decision. In a white paper report, Envoy surveyed 1,156 U.S.-based executives and workplace managers whose employees operate on some form of hybrid schedule.

Over half (54%) of managers told Envoy they’ve had to forgo making a critical decision about the workplace because they lacked the requisite data to support it. Without that data, nearly a quarter of them admit to making decisions based on “gut instinct,” which naturally leads to resentment and disappointment. Fifty-seven percent of bosses said if they had better access to data, they could better measure the success of their in-office policies.

Article is fortune magazine through Apple News.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
A data counterpoint. I guess there is just a bit of regret calling every one back to the office.

https://apple.news/AeqUPDfflTTS0GJxf6VO2dQ

If only managers had taken the hint. Four in five (80%) of bosses told workplace software firm Envoy that had they had a better grasp on their workplace data, they would have taken a starkly different approach to their return-to-office plans. The problem, they said: They didn’t have access to data that would help them make their decision. In a white paper report, Envoy surveyed 1,156 U.S.-based executives and workplace managers whose employees operate on some form of hybrid schedule.

Over half (54%) of managers told Envoy they’ve had to forgo making a critical decision about the workplace because they lacked the requisite data to support it. Without that data, nearly a quarter of them admit to making decisions based on “gut instinct,” which naturally leads to resentment and disappointment. Fifty-seven percent of bosses said if they had better access to data, they could better measure the success of their in-office policies.

Article is fortune magazine through Apple News.
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Paywalled. What's the data the bosses regret not having?
 
1_rick said:
Paywalled. What's the data the bosses regret not having?
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From mostly reading the article, they had a few issues.

1.) they found removing autonomy from workers just upset their employees, which lead to mass exodus’ at worst and at best disgruntled employees. Either way a productivity loss.

2.) Metrics not really being accurate about productivity benefits and/or boosts. There wasn’t really enough measurement before or after to know really if productivity was going up.

The article mostly concludes with giving options and hybrid at minimum being the way to go. But also notes for certain industries, if you want the best talent it will have to be a majority work from home.
 
We only live one time - something that people really seem to just ignore. And (unpaid) commuting takes up way too large a chunk of it. It's not a matter of moving closer either many companies aren't in desirable locations. And what may be desirable now, might not be in 5 years (i.e bachelor life vs starting a new family).

There's way I'd ever go back to working in office regularly. When I hit 30 years old (back in 2017) I decided I wasn't going to waste any more of my time, energy, and money on something I can do from home. I don't care if boomers did it. I don't care if you do it. I really don't. I might feel sorry for you, but otherwise I'm surfing Tuesday morning, easily hitting 15,000 steps a day walking my son to and from school, enjoying other amenities off peak hours, and just living a far-superior and healthier lifestyle than anything that could be offering by in the office for 8 straight hours. Oh - and I get choose where to live too - another perk. The time, energy, and monetary savings go well beyond just saving on the commute.

UnknownSouljer said:
A data counterpoint. I guess there is just a bit of regret calling every one back to the office.

https://apple.news/AeqUPDfflTTS0GJxf6VO2dQ

If only managers had taken the hint. Four in five (80%) of bosses told workplace software firm Envoy that had they had a better grasp on their workplace data, they would have taken a starkly different approach to their return-to-office plans. The problem, they said: They didn’t have access to data that would help them make their decision. In a white paper report, Envoy surveyed 1,156 U.S.-based executives and workplace managers whose employees operate on some form of hybrid schedule.
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They knew exactly what they were trying to do. I'm sorry but setting up a poll to obtain "data" really isn't difficult. If they're not paying well above market rate, Envoy might as well consider themselves "canceled" from the perspective of software engineers. That or it's time for them to replace their dated/useless middle managers.
 
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blade52x said:
We only live one time - something that people really seem to just ignore. And (unpaid) commuting takes up way too large a chunk of it. It's not a matter of moving closer either many companies aren't in desirable locations. And what may be desirable now, might not be in 5 years (i.e bachelor life vs starting a new family).

There's way I'd ever go back to working in office regularly. When I hit 30 years old (back in 2017) I decided I wasn't going to waste any more of my time, energy, and money on something I can do from home. I don't care if boomers did it. I don't care if you do it. I really don't. I might feel sorry for you, but otherwise I'm surfing Tuesday morning, easily hitting 15,000 steps a day walking my son to and from school, enjoying other amenities off peak hours, and just living a far-superior and healthier lifestyle than anything that could be offering by in the office for 8 straight hours. Oh - and I get choose where to live too - another perk. The time, energy, and monetary savings go well beyond just saving on the commute.
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Truer words have never been spoken... :cool:
 
So glad I don't have an Office job. I've never heard such a bunch of entitled babies cry so much.
 
The irony is real. The same people, pre and post slacking off at home and getting paid for it:

"CEOs only care about money, they don't give a shit about anything else!!!! They are ruthless capitalists who worship the dollar!"

"We are way more productive at home and make the company more money this way!!! CEOs are losing money on purpose so they can physically watch us work all day!!! They are so dumb and egotistical, why don't they care about making money!!!"


Pick one...but as someone who owns a business I'm gonna give you a hint that the truth is a lot closer to the first one. My board members and investors don't ask me if I satisfied my ego at work at month close, they ask me how much money I made them. If we lose money, my ass is on the line. If my company was more profitable with WFH I would absolutely love to ditch my lease, never have to yell at grown ass people about flushing the toilet and picking up after themselves, and make money without the hassle from my gorgeous home office.

But that's not the reality, which is why people whose job it is to make money - the CEOs - are ordering people back to the office. In this case, it is about the almighty dollar - believe it or not.
 
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