7900 XTX / 5800X3D / X570 / 32GB DDR4-3600 too slow?

S

silentcircuit

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 7, 2023
Messages
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I'm seeing others with close enough to my same setup putting up drastically better numbers in Microsoft Flight Sim and other titles. Just to use MSFS as an example, I'm seeing mid to low 40s FPS @ 4K ultra settings, everything at stock, but have found benchmarks where others averaged in the 90s, and almost nothing comparable under like 58 FPS average, no matter how old the review.

Fresh install of Windows 11 Pro, fully updated, all drivers up to date, BIOS current, CSM off, reBAR on.

Ran a few 3Dmark benches and I'm consistently under the average for my hardware, but it's also in a very small case. Airflow isn't bad but could be better. Neither GPU nor CPU are getting to their thermal limits, but they do see temps in the mid 70s C at times, so I'm sure they aren't boosting as high as they could be. Going to try undervolting the 5800X3D a little tomorrow and see if that helps. May also pull and remount the AIO just to make sure I have good contact.

No stability issues since I got the new RAM and the BIOS updated, it's just not as quick as it should be. Any help or suggestions appreciated.
 
funkydmunky said:
Check your bottleneck to figure out where to start. Something is pinching ya?
Click to expand...
I'm literally seeing people with X570 boards, 32GB of DDR4-3600, a 5800X3D (stock) and a 7900 XTX (also stock), so the same basic specs as me, get 10-30 higher average FPS than me with (as far as I can tell) the exact same settings in games. It's just... Weird. And really frustrating. This upgrade has been a total mess start to finish.
 
I think what funkydmunky was trying to say was that you need to find the source of your bottleneck. Something is holding you back, and without more info, we can't really make any suggestions.

If it was me, first place I'd start (much easier if you have a 2nd monitor available to leave it up on) is to pull up Task Manager while you're playing. Put it on the graph mode and keep an eye on your CPU, GPU and Disk utilization graphs there to see if anything leaps out at you as an area deserving deeper investigation. Also, while I know you've said you have "all the latest drivers" did you ALSO get the current X570 chipset driver pack from AMD's website? Lots of folk overlook these and they can make a difference in the performance and stability of the machine.
 
mvmiller12 said:
I think what funkydmunky was trying to say was that you need to find the source of your bottleneck. Something is holding you back, and without more info, we can't really make any suggestions.

If it was me, first place I'd start (much easier if you have a 2nd monitor available to leave it up on) is to pull up Task Manager while you're playing. Put it on the graph mode and keep an eye on your CPU, GPU and Disk utilization graphs there to see if anything leaps out at you as an area deserving deeper investigation. Also, while I know you've said you have "all the latest drivers" did you ALSO get the current X570 chipset driver pack from AMD's website? Lots of folk overlook these and they can make a difference in the performance and stability of the machine.
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I was under the impression the X570 drivers were bundled with the Ryzen Master installer, but I'll grab them from there and set up a spare monitor to keep an eye on things, thanks.

Not at all happy with AMD right now - this is my first non-Nvidia card in like 15 years and at the rate we're going it will be my last ever. I just updated Adrenaline last night and now it just... Doesn't work. Silent crash on open. Quick Google shows many others with the same issue. DDU, which is normally recommended as the fix, does nothing - exact same behavior on reinstall. I have cried in frustration more than once in the past few days - the whole thing is dangerously close to going out a widow.
 
silentcircuit said:
I was under the impression the X570 drivers were bundled with the Ryzen Master installer, but I'll grab them from there and set up a spare monitor to keep an eye on things, thanks.

Not at all happy with AMD right now - this is my first non-Nvidia card in like 15 years and at the rate we're going it will be my last ever. I just updated Adrenaline last night and now it just... Doesn't work. Silent crash on open. Quick Google shows many others with the same issue. DDU, which is normally recommended as the fix, does nothing - exact same behavior on reinstall. I have cried in frustration more than once in the past few days - the whole thing is dangerously close to going out a widow.
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Assuming you mean the Adrenalin Control Panel fails to open, my experience with that has always been that it happens when Windows silently replaces your video driver with their preferred version off of Windows Update. I had to go in and manually turn off the Windows "Automatically download drivers" option to get that to stop happening. Now mind you, my AMD systems are as in my signature - I've never touched a 7000-series GPU.
 
mvmiller12 said:
Assuming you mean the Adrenalin Control Panel fails to open, my experience with that has always been that it happens when Windows silently replaces your video driver with their preferred version off of Windows Update. I had to go in and manually turn off the Windows "Automatically download drivers" option to get that to stop happening. Now mind you, my AMD systems are as in my signature - I've never touched a 7000-series GPU.
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Thanks for the idea - also disabled that and reinstalled current driver, same behavior. Downgrading to 23.9.1 brings the control panel back. It also eliminated the shortcut from the desktop right click menu, so I guess they changed something between 23.9.1 and 23.9.2 that breaks it on my computer. I'll just sit out this version and hope it's fixed in the next, but again, like practically everything else since I put this card in the machine, it does not instill confidence.
 
silentcircuit said:
Thanks for the idea - also disabled that and reinstalled current driver, same behavior. Downgrading to 23.9.1 brings the control panel back. It also eliminated the shortcut from the desktop right click menu, so I guess they changed something between 23.9.1 and 23.9.2 that breaks it on my computer. I'll just sit out this version and hope it's fixed in the next, but again, like practically everything else since I put this card in the machine, it does not instill confidence.
Click to expand...

Another thing you may not have considered is the supporting software on the PC (such as Microsoft C runtimes). It used to be a real PITA to keep track of this stuff, but Microsoft has recently taken a page out of the Linux playbook and started bundling a command line package manager into Windows that handily takes care of this.

It might be worth checking it out. Open a regular command prompt (Admin is not required) and type:
Code: 
WINGET UPDATE
to get the latest package versions downloaded. After that completes,
Code: 
WINGET UPGRADE --ALL
will update most of the packages with no other input other than the occasional UAC authorization prompt.
 
silentcircuit said:
I'm seeing others with close enough to my same setup putting up drastically better numbers in Microsoft Flight Sim and other titles. Just to use MSFS as an example, I'm seeing mid to low 40s FPS @ 4K ultra settings, everything at stock, but have found benchmarks where others averaged in the 90s, and almost nothing comparable under like 58 FPS average, no matter how old the review.

Fresh install of Windows 11 Pro, fully updated, all drivers up to date, BIOS current, CSM off, reBAR on.

Ran a few 3Dmark benches and I'm consistently under the average for my hardware, but it's also in a very small case. Airflow isn't bad but could be better. Neither GPU nor CPU are getting to their thermal limits, but they do see temps in the mid 70s C at times, so I'm sure they aren't boosting as high as they could be. Going to try undervolting the 5800X3D a little tomorrow and see if that helps. May also pull and remount the AIO just to make sure I have good contact.

No stability issues since I got the new RAM and the BIOS updated, it's just not as quick as it should be. Any help or suggestions appreciated.
Click to expand...

What is your entire build? Including any M2 drives, hooked up devices, USB devices, etc?

You can use https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ to make it easier.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
What is your entire build? Including any M2 drives, hooked up devices, USB devices, etc?

You can use https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ to make it easier.
Click to expand...
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/kPhfPF

Everything but the PSU is accurate - I have the Lian Li 850w SFX, they didn't have it listed.

I've been working on it and think everything is pretty much sorted, thanks in large part to help from people over on TechPowerUp and here. I've been out of this too long and just don't have the patience for it any more. I haven't had this many driver issues since Windows 98, but apart from not quite reaching full boost clocks under heavy mixed loads this is, at this point, as good as it's getting.

Price to performance of the 7900 XTX is a joke, and I doubt it will last more than a month or two before it's replaced. It's pathetic that this is the best AMD is currently willing or able to offer. Every time I sit down to use the machine I'm just angry, and I don't know if that's going away. I may just return everything and go back to the 3600 and 2080, that's how frustrated all this has left me.

Thought I wouldn't miss raytracing that much, but I do, and it has become painfully clear that a 4090 is my only real option. I hate the current PC market. This is the most disappointing $1500, between this card and chip, that I've ever spent. My next build probably won't have a single AMD part in it, purely out of spite. Not that I want to give Nvidia a cent either. Think I may just be done with the hobby. Get a PS5 or something.
 
I skimmed through your thread on TechPowerUp, which I found via a quick google search. It appears your issue was your CPU overheating? Your CPU should not be hitting 80C+ during normal gaming.

I have this cooler on my 7800X3D:
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/DMjG3C/noctua-nh-u14s-8252-cfm-cpu-cooler-nh-u14s
And that thing isn't even hitting 67C during most gaming, it's in the 70s at the very highest, even while kicking boxes around in Skyr--Starfield. IIRC the 5800X3D should use less power and your AIO should have more performance to begin with. So this is weird...

How do you have the airflow laid out in your case? A quick pic might be nice. Did you try reapplying thermal paste on the CPU? Reseating the AIO? Make sure your pump is running and that your fans are configured well? Maybe also make sure you don't have dust buildup in the radiator. It builds up over time.

Anyway I know it's frustrating, but I'm not sure if your 7900XTX is the issue... unless it's experiencing high junction temperatures that plague some users, but it didn't sound like it from that thread? AMD is totally going to have worse RT performance, but from what people have been telling me, it's not necessarily that they're bad at "ray tracing", they're bad at Nvidia's implementation of it, which is kind of being used in most places at the moment. Cyberpunk is pretty much the worst game you could test out an AMD GPU on lol. Just maybe give it a whirl in some other games and see how it is. I'd be curious as to what you think of it in Hogwarts Legacy if you have that, RD2, etc. The 4090 is going to be generally stronger, but it's just a lot of money to plop down. I've ranted about the current GPU market on more than one occasion, so I understand the frustration. Think it over and make the choice you're comfortable with. Maybe even a used 3080 Ti or 3090 might be a good upgrade if you just want real budget and RT perf, though you won't get DLSS3. I went from a 2080 to a 3080 Ti about a year ago and it was a really big leap. Unfortunately the 4070 and 4070 Ti have gimped memory bus and it sounds like you game at 4k. The 7900 XTX is amazing at raster, but ray tracing on Nvidia's RT implementation is basically on the level of a 3090. It's not terrible, but yeah it's not great. FSR does need a lot of work, too.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
I skimmed through your thread on TechPowerUp, which I found via a quick google search. It appears your issue was your CPU overheating? Your CPU should not be hitting 80C+ during normal gaming.

I have this cooler on my 7800X3D:
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/DMjG3C/noctua-nh-u14s-8252-cfm-cpu-cooler-nh-u14s
And that thing isn't even hitting 67C during most gaming, it's in the 70s at the very highest, even while kicking boxes around in Skyr--Starfield. IIRC the 5800X3D should use less power and your AIO should have more performance to begin with. So this is weird...

How do you have the airflow laid out in your case? A quick pic might be nice. Did you try reapplying thermal paste on the CPU? Reseating the AIO? Make sure your pump is running and that your fans are configured well? Maybe also make sure you don't have dust buildup in the radiator. It builds up over time.

Anyway I know it's frustrating, but I'm not sure if your 7900XTX is the issue... unless it's experiencing high junction temperatures that plague some users, but it didn't sound like it from that thread? AMD is totally going to have worse RT performance, but from what people have been telling me, it's not necessarily that they're bad at "ray tracing", they're bad at Nvidia's implementation of it, which is kind of being used in most places at the moment. Cyberpunk is pretty much the worst game you could test out an AMD GPU on lol. Just maybe give it a whirl in some other games and see how it is. I'd be curious as to what you think of it in Hogwarts Legacy if you have that, RD2, etc. The 4090 is going to be generally stronger, but it's just a lot of money to plop down. I've ranted about the current GPU market on more than one occasion, so I understand the frustration. Think it over and make the choice you're comfortable with. Maybe even a used 3080 Ti or 3090 might be a good upgrade if you just want real budget and RT perf, though you won't get DLSS3. I went from a 2080 to a 3080 Ti about a year ago and it was a really big leap. Unfortunately the 4070 and 4070 Ti have gimped memory bus and it sounds like you game at 4k. The 7900 XTX is amazing at raster, but ray tracing on Nvidia's RT implementation is basically on the level of a 3090. It's not terrible, but yeah it's not great. FSR does need a lot of work, too.
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CPU hits 80C in Cinebench, not games - haven't seen it go past like 77C in game, and that's only the Cyberpunk benchmark running path tracing, everything else I've tried it runs a little cooler, low 70s. I also went to a -30 PBO, so hopefully that will help. Haven't done any testing since, but I'm not getting any crashing at idle which is apparently the place more aggressive PBO curve modification causes issues, so guess I'm lucky there. I'll re-paste it tomorrow, see if that helps. If not, apparently dropping back a few BIOS versions will let it run much cooler, but there may be stability issues. Hoping I don't have to mess with that.

Fans are top exhaust on the radiator, and the 7900 does... Whatever it does. If I end up keeping it, unlikely as that's looking right now, I'll try to duct it with closed cell foam or something between it and the case side panel. I'm sure nothing is ideal, but it's a tiny case. Guess I could reverse the radiator fans, which might help CPU temps as they wouldn't be pulling (as much) hot air from the card, but I doubt it will be night and day different. Someone suggested I get another case, but that's not happening. I briefly considered getting a "better" AIO, but the DashFlow reviews surprisingly well, so I doubt there's a lot to be gained there. Not like I can fit a significantly thicker radiator or anything in this case.

I don't know. It's hard to care at this point.
 
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I looked up that case. Is that CPU radiator basically the only exhaust for the entire SFF build? That might explain some things. I think the 7900XTX is a ~400W part. For reference, your 2080 was 225W. Since it's an aftermarket cooler, all of that heat is just getting pumped right back into the case. So your radiator is having to deal with the CPU that probably runs a bit hotter and then double the heat that you used to get from the GPU. That explains why your CPU is only hitting about 80C in Cinebench, but your gaming temps aren't much lower. I bet if you ran Furmark or something while running Cinebench, your temps would probably skyrocket (don't try this). Also what gen is the riser cable that you're using for the GPU?

I've never actually tried running Cinebench myself. Tried it earlier (new 2024 edition) on my 7800X3D. It hit about 81C briefly and then went down to 77-78 when the fans spun up a bit. I'm impressed with how well this single fan tower air cooler is doing. It was boosting to 4850ish the entire time, so no throttling. These X3D parts are extremely efficient. Multi core score was 1100 which I think is about average.

Also PSU is B-rank on the PSU cultist list. While it's wattage is definitely over the expected wattage of your computer, it has a warning for it:
1695790553996.png

[7] OTP is set too high or potentially non-functioning, unit did not survive the test, source : Aris (HWBusters / TPU / THW) reviews.

Your new build is using quite a bit more wattage than your previous one, so just pointing out possible failure points.
 
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StoleMyOwnCar said:
I looked up that case. Is that CPU radiator basically the only exhaust for the entire SFF build? That might explain some things. I think the 7900XTX is a ~400W part. For reference, your 2080 was 225W. Since it's an aftermarket cooler, all of that heat is just getting pumped right back into the case. So your radiator is having to deal with the CPU that probably runs a bit hotter and then double the heat that you used to get from the GPU. That explains why your CPU is only hitting about 80C in Cinebench, but your gaming temps aren't much lower. I bet if you ran Furmark or something while running Cinebench, your temps would probably skyrocket (don't try this). Also what gen is the riser cable that you're using for the GPU?

I've never actually tried running Cinebench myself. Tried it earlier (new 2024 edition) on my 7800X3D. It hit about 81C briefly and then went down to 77-78 when the fans spun up a bit. I'm impressed with how well this single fan tower air cooler is doing. It was boosting to 4850ish the entire time, so no throttling. These X3D parts are extremely efficient. Multi core score was 1100 which I think is about average.

Also PSU is B-rank on the PSU cultist list. While it's wattage is definitely over the expected wattage of your computer, it has a warning for it:
View attachment 601548
[7] OTP is set too high or potentially non-functioning, unit did not survive the test, source : Aris (HWBusters / TPU / THW) reviews.

Your new build is using quite a bit more wattage than your previous one, so just pointing out possible failure points.
Click to expand...
Looks like the way it's oriented that the GPU would be exhausting out the side opposite the CPU. Maybe the PCI-E riser cable is causing the issue?

1695824472660.png
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
I looked up that case. Is that CPU radiator basically the only exhaust for the entire SFF build? That might explain some things. I think the 7900XTX is a ~400W part. For reference, your 2080 was 225W. Since it's an aftermarket cooler, all of that heat is just getting pumped right back into the case. So your radiator is having to deal with the CPU that probably runs a bit hotter and then double the heat that you used to get from the GPU. That explains why your CPU is only hitting about 80C in Cinebench, but your gaming temps aren't much lower. I bet if you ran Furmark or something while running Cinebench, your temps would probably skyrocket (don't try this). Also what gen is the riser cable that you're using for the GPU?

I've never actually tried running Cinebench myself. Tried it earlier (new 2024 edition) on my 7800X3D. It hit about 81C briefly and then went down to 77-78 when the fans spun up a bit. I'm impressed with how well this single fan tower air cooler is doing. It was boosting to 4850ish the entire time, so no throttling. These X3D parts are extremely efficient. Multi core score was 1100 which I think is about average.

Also PSU is B-rank on the PSU cultist list. While it's wattage is definitely over the expected wattage of your computer, it has a warning for it:
View attachment 601548
[7] OTP is set too high or potentially non-functioning, unit did not survive the test, source : Aris (HWBusters / TPU / THW) reviews.

Your new build is using quite a bit more wattage than your previous one, so just pointing out possible failure points.
Click to expand...
The radiator pulls from the front of the motherboard and the GPU chamber. I'm thinking about finding some closed cell foam to cut out a duct and reduce turbulence on the GPU side.

Yes, I know it's not the best possible PSU, but the whole build pulls 600, maybe 650 watts at full tilt with the CPU and GPU loaded. Don't think I'm anywhere near the danger zone. Certainly haven't had any stability issues since sorting out the BIOS and RAM, so I don't think power is an issue.

Going up mess around with a little more testing today, if I can summon up the energy.

Armenius said:
Looks like the way it's oriented that the GPU would be exhausting out the side opposite the CPU. Maybe the PCI-E riser cable is causing the issue?

View attachment 601610
Click to expand...
It's a PCIe 4 riser.
 
silentcircuit said:
It's a PCIe 4 riser.
Click to expand...
Signaling errors can occur using a riser. You're also increasing the distance to the bus, increasing latency, but the performance difference versus plugging in directly to the motherboard should be negligible with a good riser. Check your system logs to see if you're getting any WHEA errors. If you can take the system out of the case and test with the video card plugged directly into the PCI-E slot that would eliminate the riser as an issue.
 
Armenius said:
Looks like the way it's oriented that the GPU would be exhausting out the side opposite the CPU. Maybe the PCI-E riser cable is causing the issue?
Click to expand...
Yeah but the case only has one exhaust, and that's through the CPU radiator, which is mounted up top as far as I can tell? I believe it's meant to take the heat from both the GPU side and the CPU side.
silentcircuit said:
Yes, I know it's not the best possible PSU, but the whole build pulls 600, maybe 650 watts at full tilt with the CPU and GPU loaded. Don't think I'm anywhere near the danger zone. Certainly haven't had any stability issues since sorting out the BIOS and RAM, so I don't think power is an issue.
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It's not about the capacity. Some PSUs just have faults. For that particular one, seems like some temperature issue? Just something to keep in mind since you had issues in the past with everything just at stock. You would probably have this issue even with a 4090, if it's a heat issue. Its TDP is even higher, so it would be worse, unless you got an FE card which I think is half-blower. I think most people building in SFF cases with a very high wattage part tend to opt for a mostly blower like GPU configuration, though I'm not sure if one exists for the 7900XTX. Otherwise I usually see small mini loops with water blocks on the GPU. If you're fine with how it's performing now then it's fine, though. Sorry you had so many issues getting just trying to run the thing at stock.

Armenius said:
Signaling errors can occur using a riser. You're also increasing the distance to the bus, increasing latency, but the performance difference versus plugging in directly to the motherboard should be negligible with a good riser. Check your system logs to see if you're getting any WHEA errors. If you can take the system out of the case and test with the video card plugged directly into the PCI-E slot that would eliminate the riser as an issue.
Click to expand...
Think they're kinda fed up with the thing. Taking it all out just to try that would be a bit of a stretch. Unfortunately these are the sort of issues you get when you try to put a high end system in a very SFF case. It has to be really carefully planned. If they were running intel, god forbid, it would be even worse. Contemporary Intel parts iirc run very hot?
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
It's not about the capacity. Some PSUs just have faults. For that particular one, seems like some temperature issue? Just something to keep in mind since you had issues in the past with everything just at stock. You would probably have this issue even with a 4090, if it's a heat issue. Its TDP is even higher, so it would be worse, unless you got an FE card which I think is half-blower. I think most people building in SFF cases with a very high wattage part tend to opt for a mostly blower like GPU configuration, though I'm not sure if one exists for the 7900XTX. Otherwise I usually see small mini loops with water blocks on the GPU. If you're fine with how it's performing now then it's fine, though. Sorry you had so many issues getting just trying to run the thing at stock.
Click to expand...

Stability issues before were BIOS and RAM related; it's been rock solid since I updated the BIOS to current and swapped the RAM.
 
Worst comes to worst I do have another larger ITX case I can put everything in. Used to have a huge Phanteks dual tower cooler, too, but I have no idea where it is right now. Probably got tossed or lost in the move. The other case doesn't require a riser. Don't think the riser is causing an issue now, though.

That, and I spent like $300 on the Lian Li and PSU, so... Probably not going to happen.
 
silentcircuit said:
Stability issues before were BIOS and RAM related; it's been rock solid since I updated the BIOS to current and swapped the RAM.
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Okay, I thought you said you were on the most recent BIOS already when this all started. If it's stable, and you're satisfied with the performance, then it's fine. If you do get any throttling or weird performance, well... you know what the issue might be.

The only mini itx case I have used is the Thermaltake Core V1. I quite enjoyed working with it, but it's much less compact than that case is. Also probably fits less GPUs; my old 2080 Windforce barely fits in it. My build with it was just an 11400F with a low profile Noctua cooler and the 2080. For that, it was great. I think for anything more than that... Mini ITX requires more planning.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
Okay, I thought you said you were on the most recent BIOS already when this all started. If it's stable, and you're satisfied with the performance, then it's fine. If you do get any throttling or weird performance, well... you know what the issue might be.

The only mini itx case I have used is the Thermaltake Core V1. I quite enjoyed working with it, but it's much less compact than that case is. Also probably fits less GPUs; my old 2080 Windforce barely fits in it. My build with it was just an 11400F with a low profile Noctua cooler and the 2080. For that, it was great. I think for anything more than that... Mini ITX requires more planning.
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I thought I was, but it had been longer than I thought since I last updated the BIOS. My sense of time is dreadful.
 
Another easy check is to pull the covers off the case and point a desk fan into it. See if the increased airflow makes a difference. If it does, then thermals are the answer.
 
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