Worth water-cooling for Performance/Price/Experience?

[OldM3ta]

Hey all.. I am thinking of building a budget box based on the new 35W AMD Mobile Socket A processors. I heard on air, these bad boys are getting 50% overclocks... so I was wondering whether I should just step up to water.

The budget box I wanted was around $500-$600 dollars, because I want something that will be fun to tweak for performance vs. price, decent for Farcry, DoomIII, and Half-Life2.

My first intent was to go all silly-top-of-the-line, but I thought about it, and it seems the technology I want (socket 939 64bit, PCI-E graphics) won't be mature and past their premiums in enough time for me to enjoy these games when they come out....

On the other hand, I do want to dab at watercooling. It's intrigued me since I've heard about it, and I've read alot on it.... yet, I wasn't sure if should get started on this system I'm building for the "mean time" or save the money for when I do buy the s939 64bit, pci-e graphics badboy in 6-8 months. I want the best for PERFORMANCE/PRICE/EXPERIENCE. So what do you think?

The box I've pieced together so far has been:

From NewEgg:
Mobile 35 Watt AMD Athlon XP-M 2200+ 512K L2 - OEM $77.00
DFI "NFII ULTRA INFINITY" nf2 Ultra 400 Retail - $92.00
OCZ Enhanced Latency Series DC Gold 256MBx2 DDR PC-4000 - $118.00
Maxtor 40GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive 2MB Buffer - $51.00
Asus Black 16X DVD-ROM Drive DVD-E616P1 - $31.00
DYNAPOWER Black 86B2 Mid-Tower Case with 430W Power Supply - $30.00

From Ebay:
(9800 PRO 128 - $125-145) or (5900 XT 128 - $130-140) - $150 max

TOTAL FROM BOX - $549.00

But I'm still deciding on which type/brand of vid card to go with.. I want a good overclocker/modder either if I go with air or water....

But is this case sufficient... ?
Here is the link to it with pictures - http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=11-138-033&depa=0
It appears to have a Temperature indicator on front panel which I thought might come useful.

If is recommend I go with watercooling, are these parts good choices and good deals?

Will they really help with the overclocking process in terms of the Mobile 35W AMD?

Will any be able to transferred over to my newer system in 6 months?

Finally, will the case be able to hold all this or is there any better for the price?

WATERCOOLING SPECS - Locations and Prices :
Swifttech MCW6002-A cpu waterblock 1/2" ID $42.50 sidewindercomputers.com
MAZE4 GPU Waterblock 1/2" Fittings $40 dangerden.com
MAZE4 Chipset Waterblock 1/2" $38.50 dangerden.com
77' Bonniville heater core $18 autozone
1/2" Barbs for heater core ~$8.00 somewhere (?)
Swifttech MCP600 rev2 pump - $80 sidewindercomputers.com
Clear Reservoir 1/2" fittings 3.5"Tall, 3/8"Thick 80MM Adapter - $27.50 dangerden.com

watercooling - $254.50

Worth pumping up the price of that $550 system to around $800?


Thanks for all the help!

 

[Dark Ember]

Yes! Of course you should go with water. You might have to get a different waterblock down the line, but, its not like they cost any more than a new heatsink, really. All the parts you have listed there look great too.

However, if you don't want to spend quite that much money, you could probably ditch the chipset block with minimal impact. Its not as essential as the CPU and GPU blocks, obviously.

 

[z3r0-]

Yea the NB block will do nothing other than lower flow a bit and add more to the price tag. Where do you plan on mounting the radiator?

 

[kronchev]

Mobile 35 Watt AMD Athlon XP-M 2200+ 512K L2 - OEM $77.00
DFI "NFII ULTRA INFINITY" nf2 Ultra 400 Retail - $92.00
OCZ Enhanced Latency Series DC Gold 256MBx2 DDR PC-4000 - $118.00
Maxtor 40GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive 2MB Buffer - $51.00
Asus Black 16X DVD-ROM Drive DVD-E616P1 - $31.00
DYNAPOWER Black 86B2 Mid-Tower Case with 430W Power Supply - $30.00


1) The only good mobiles are 2500+ or higher
2) Ive heard issues with DFI boards, even if they OC the best, they can be problematic
3) Avoid OCZ like it had AIDS
4) Dont skimp on a harddrive, you will always regret it
5) looks ok
6) Dont skimp on a PSU unles you like replacing everything when it explodes


Swifttech MCW6002-A cpu waterblock 1/2" ID $42.50 sidewindercomputers.com
MAZE4 GPU Waterblock 1/2" Fittings $40 dangerden.com
MAZE4 Chipset Waterblock 1/2" $38.50 dangerden.com
77' Bonniville heater core $18 autozone
1/2" Barbs for heater core ~$8.00 somewhere (?)
Swifttech MCP600 rev2 pump - $80 sidewindercomputers.com
Clear Reservoir 1/2" fittings 3.5"Tall, 3/8"Thick 80MM Adapter - $27.50 dangerden.com

1) Im not a fan of swifty but its your choice
2) looks good
3) waste of money
4) good good
5) good
6) what a waste. get a hydor L20 and have an extra power cord. boo hoo
7) looks good

 

[OldM3ta]

Yes! Of course you should go with water. You might have to get a different waterblock down the line, but, its not like they cost any more than a new heatsink, really. All the parts you have listed there look great too.

However, if you don't want to spend quite that much money, you could probably ditch the chipset block with minimal impact. Its not as essential as the CPU and GPU blocks, obviously.

Heh.. well you make it sound so believable! So since the motherboard I was using has the memory controller in the north bridge (nf2 ultra 400), won't the northbridge block help me maintain higher system bus clocks for the FSB?

 

[jinu117]

Swifttech MCP600 rev2 pump - $80 sidewindercomputers.com
Clear Reservoir 1/2" fittings 3.5"Tall, 3/8"Thick 80MM Adapter - $27.50 dangerden.com

6) what a waste. get a hydor L20 and have an extra power cord. boo hoo

Read the review on block and pump from overclockers.com. Look at how restrictive (while good in range of cascade) the block is. L20 just doesn't have the head to use the block effectively. I would say good choices in H20 setup other than chipset. Unless you are really planning over 50% oc... most of stock chipsets handles well up to 40%. There are air cooling chipset options which will not impact your oc at all. For me, looking for simple exos setup somewhere cheap Been all the way to fully peltier cooled system with double pump double loop, etc. Got burnt out (not literally) of having to spend extra 30min 1 hour each time I play with some other component That was good day for me with P4 2.4b reachign well up to 3.7ghz (My 3d mark score etc is significantly lower now that I have 3.2c with 9800 pro vs 2.4b with 9700 pro fully peltiered volt modded etc )
If you plan to keep on H2O... its a decent investment. For me, if I am plunging back in, its gotta be something simpler and can last years now. Otherwise, money can be spent on upgrades.

 

[kronchev]

Read the review on block and pump from overclockers.com. Look at how restrictive (while good in range of cascade) the block is. L20 just doesn't have the head to use the block effectively. I would say good choices in H20 setup other than chipset. Unless you are really planning over 50% oc... most of stock chipsets handles well up to 40%. There are air cooling chipset options which will not impact your oc at all. For me, looking for simple exos setup somewhere cheap Been all the way to fully peltier cooled system with double pump double loop, etc. Got burnt out (not literally) of having to spend extra 30min 1 hour each time I play with some other component

ok then, Hydor L35, you save money either way.

 

[Dark Ember]

Heh.. well you make it sound so believable! So since the motherboard I was using has the memory controller in the north bridge (nf2 ultra 400), won't the northbridge block help me maintain higher system bus clocks for the FSB?

Well, in theory, yes. I actually have the same motherboard with a 2500+m on it. I have a DTek chipset block that I'm using at the moment on there. I've tried the loop both with and without it, and with the block, the board will boot up at 12 x 229 fsb, as opposed to the 227 it booted up with before. Neither is stable though. It didn't give me any leeway for a stable FSB either. The highest I can go with any kind of stability is 220, whether i have the block on there or not. So, its your call. Just relating my experience.

 

[OldM3ta]

Mobile 35 Watt AMD Athlon XP-M 2200+ 512K L2 - OEM $77.00
DFI "NFII ULTRA INFINITY" nf2 Ultra 400 Retail - $92.00
OCZ Enhanced Latency Series DC Gold 256MBx2 DDR PC-4000 - $118.00
Maxtor 40GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive 2MB Buffer - $51.00
Asus Black 16X DVD-ROM Drive DVD-E616P1 - $31.00
DYNAPOWER Black 86B2 Mid-Tower Case with 430W Power Supply - $30.00


1) The only good mobiles are 2500+ or higher
2) Ive heard issues with DFI boards, even if they OC the best, they can be problematic
3) Avoid OCZ like it had AIDS
4) Dont skimp on a harddrive, you will always regret it
5) looks ok
6) Dont skimp on a PSU unles you like replacing everything when it explodes

Thanks for the response! Hear are some of my replies:

1) I saw on here http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=762446&page=5&pp=20 some guy getting his 2400+ up to 2.7GHz... not bad... so maybe the 2400+ will be adequate and still better than the 2200+... for just $10....
2) What did you hear? What other board do you suggest for around the same price?
3) What horror stories have you heard about OCZ? What other brand do you recommend for around the same price?
4) Maybe I'll step up to 8MB cache, but I don't need more the 40 GBs... really.. I can get the winxp footprint down and speedy at around 1GB, 2GB worth of productivity software, and that leaves me 37GB for games... should be enough for three or four on the system at a time....
5) Thanks..
6) Will it fit all my watercooling stuff? I might switch out the PSU, but is 430W not enough?

(More lower...)

Swifttech MCW6002-A cpu waterblock 1/2" ID $42.50 sidewindercomputers.com
MAZE4 GPU Waterblock 1/2" Fittings $40 dangerden.com
MAZE4 Chipset Waterblock 1/2" $38.50 dangerden.com
77' Bonniville heater core $18 autozone
1/2" Barbs for heater core ~$8.00 somewhere (?)
Swifttech MCP600 rev2 pump - $80 sidewindercomputers.com
Clear Reservoir 1/2" fittings 3.5"Tall, 3/8"Thick 80MM Adapter - $27.50 dangerden.com

1) Im not a fan of swifty but its your choice
2) looks good
3) waste of money
4) good good
5) good
6) what a waste. get a hydor L20 and have an extra power cord. boo hoo
7) looks good

1) I read on the forum that it had the best price/performance ratio... what would you recommend for socket A otherwise?
3) Would the northbridge cooler not give me extra capacity on the FSB overclock?
6) You do have a point, but does the HydorL20 or even the HydorL30 push at the performance of the 12v pumps?


Thanks again for your response and conversation... It will definitely come in handy....

 

[Dark Ember]

Thanks for the response! Hear are some of my replies:


3) What horror stories have you heard about OCZ? What other brand do you recommend for around the same price?

good god, I didn't see that. PLEASE don't get OCZ ram. The purpose of that company seems to be to screw over anyone who buys their products.



1) I read on the forum that it had the best price/performance ratio... what would you recommend for socket A otherwise?

The swifty is a good block. A couple other good socket A blocks are the DTek White Water, and Danger Den TDX or RBX.


6) You do have a point, but does the HydorL20 or even the HydorL30 push at the performance of the 12v pumps?

No, they don't. The MCP600 is one of the best out there thats still at a semi-reasonable price. If you have the money to spend, I would get that pump. Would leave you more room for expansion of your loop later as well. If you have the 80 bucks to drop, I would do it.

^ I addressed all the stuff up there in bold.

 

[OldM3ta]

Read the review on block and pump from overclockers.com. Look at how restrictive (while good in range of cascade) the block is. L20 just doesn't have the head to use the block effectively. I would say good choices in H20 setup other than chipset. Unless you are really planning over 50% oc... most of stock chipsets handles well up to 40%. There are air cooling chipset options which will not impact your oc at all. For me, looking for simple exos setup somewhere cheap Been all the way to fully peltier cooled system with double pump double loop, etc. Got burnt out (not literally) of having to spend extra 30min 1 hour each time I play with some other component That was good day for me with P4 2.4b reachign well up to 3.7ghz (My 3d mark score etc is significantly lower now that I have 3.2c with 9800 pro vs 2.4b with 9700 pro fully peltiered volt modded etc )
If you plan to keep on H2O... its a decent investment. For me, if I am plunging back in, its gotta be something simpler and can last years now. Otherwise, money can be spent on upgrades.

Thanks for the response! Yeah... as I noted.. some guy on our this forum got his 2400+ to 2.7 GHz for a 50% air overclock using a Sunon 80mm 84CFM fan, but I definietly don't want to go deaf! But do want the O/C. So the chipset cooling may be ideal if I have a decent pump that will be able to handle the extra block, I think.. unless other posts better inform me about that being a poor choice....

So you went all crazy on water-cooling? But you did manage that crazy 2.4b overclock.. that sure must of felt nice? Maybe you got burnt out because of the obsession with speed for lower price.. not a bad obsession to have, but too much of anything sure is bad for you.

Did you feel after the set up was done, maintaining the cooling was pricey? Or was it just a thing where you felt that you were eventually spending more money than you wanted to on the upgrades to the cooling system while abandoning or shying away from the upgrades to the PC?

 

[OldM3ta]

Yea the NB block will do nothing other than lower flow a bit and add more to the price tag. Where do you plan on mounting the radiator?

I don't know.. I was thinking the top but its not a large case.. I've never seen a bonneville heatercore in person so I don't know how it is in terms of size... I did link a picture to the case up top, so can you look and make a recommendation?

 

[jinu117]

ok then, Hydor L35, you save money either way.

Here is info on Hydor L30. Seems pretty similar to L35 (couldn't find L35 spec)
GPH HEAD (ft)
336 0
307 0.82
278 1.65
246 2.47
214 3.3
180 4.12
136.2 4.9
79.4 5.77
0 6.6

Here is the info on swiftech.
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCP600/comparative.jpg
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCP600/MCP600 PQrev1-630X450.gif

You will see generally more head in comparible flow. On restrictive blocks nothing beats the ability to pass the water. (within a reason).

Now this is based on swiftech's comparitive testing. They show about .7gph on "typical setup". Which turns into 11GPH! Obvious advantage when you really won't see the 150-300gph they claim (at 0ft head )

Now, if you don't believe me... read this

http://www.procooling.com/articles/html/pump_comparison__-_phaestus__1.php

this shows pretty much what I am talking about.

http://www.procooling.com/articles/assets/images/ph-pc-flowcurve.gif

 

[OldM3ta]

Well, in theory, yes. I actually have the same motherboard with a 2500+m on it. I have a DTek chipset block that I'm using at the moment on there. I've tried the loop both with and without it, and with the block, the board will boot up at 12 x 229 fsb, as opposed to the 227 it booted up with before. Neither is stable though. It didn't give me any leeway for a stable FSB either. The highest I can go with any kind of stability is 220, whether i have the block on there or not. So, its your call. Just relating my experience.

Thanks for the story.. what kind of RAM are you using... and at what timings?

 

[OldM3ta]

Here is info on Hydor L30. Seems pretty similar to L35 (couldn't find L35 spec)
GPH HEAD (ft)
336 0
307 0.82
278 1.65
246 2.47
214 3.3
180 4.12
136.2 4.9
79.4 5.77
0 6.6

Here is the info on swiftech.
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCP600/comparative.jpg
http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/MCP600/MCP600 PQrev1-630X450.gif

You will see generally more head in comparible flow. On restrictive blocks nothing beats the ability to pass the water. (within a reason).

Now this is based on swiftech's comparitive testing. They show about .7gph on "typical setup". Which turns into 11GPH! Obvious advantage when you really won't see the 150-300gph they claim (at 0ft head )

Now, if you don't believe me... read this

http://www.procooling.com/articles/html/pump_comparison__-_phaestus__1.php

this shows pretty much what I am talking about.

http://www.procooling.com/articles/assets/images/ph-pc-flowcurve.gif

So you are telling me through this message subliminally... "buuuuyyy...the....swifttech....pummmmmmppppp...buuuuyyy...the....swifttech....pummmmmmppppp...buuuuyyy...the....swifttech....pummmmmmppppp..." ... Right?

 

[Yogi]

3) Avoid OCZ like it had AIDS

You know, you don't have to avoid people that have aids, just don't have sex or exchange any blood with them. Of course, by that comment you could have simply meant that he shouldn't have sex with OCZ or it's products, and I totally agree. Having sex with a stick of ram is not advised.

Anyways....

I agree with kronchev on everything but the swiftech comment and pump.

OCZ has lied and cheated many customers in the past, and should be avoided whenever possible. Their products cannot be trusted to live up to the promised specs. Go with Corsair, Kingston, or Mushkin for performance overclocking ram. I have used Corsair for years and love their products.

Swiftech makes very good products, but some people have had bad experiences with their support, and are therefore a bit bitter towards them. It's your choice. Dtek and DangerDen products are also good.

The MCP600 is an excellent pump, and it is a good investment.

Definetly get a 8mb cache hard drive! I'd say get a high end SCSI drive, but I'm assuming you don't want to spend that much. Hard drive performance is the most overlooked and yet crucial bottleneck in any desktop system.

The Abit NF7-S 2.0 is a great overclocking socket A board, and it is very stable and reliable also.

Chipset blocks can be useful, but most people won't find them worth the money. I have the swiftech chipset block, but I'm overvolting my chipset by a pencil mod and my chipset cooler fan was starting to die anyways so I needed to replace it.

:end list of random advice:

 

[Dark Ember]

Thanks for the story.. what kind of RAM are you using... and at what timings?

I have some BH-5 Kingston at 2-2-2-6. I had to put it at 2-3-2-11 to get it to boot at about 220 and up though.

 

[jinu117]

So you are telling me through this message subliminally... "buuuuyyy...the....swifttech....pummmmmmppppp...buuuuyyy...the....swifttech....pummmmmmppppp...buuuuyyy...the....swifttech....pummmmmmppppp..." ... Right?

LOL... if you can afford it It is a bit expensive and not as quiet as eheim 1250. For pure hard corers... Iwaki is what people swear by. (incredible head)

 

[OldM3ta]

LOL... if you can afford it It is a bit expensive and not as quiet as eheim 1250. For pure hard corers... Iwaki is what people swear by. (incredible head)

Heh.. I wouldn't mind spending the $80 bucks on the pump since I know its the most vital component of all of them.... but $80 for some "incredible head" would be great too!

 

[jinu117]

Heh.. I wouldn't mind spending the $80 bucks on the pump since I know its the most vital component of all of them.... but $80 for some "incredible head" would be great too!

Iwaki's run in range of $120-200 on e-bay... truely extreme

 

[Yogi]

Heh.. I wouldn't mind spending the $80 bucks on the pump since I know its the most vital component of all of them.... but $80 for some "incredible head" would be great too!

I'm going to have to expand my warning.

No sex with OCZ ram or any waterpumps. Remember that.

 

[DarkenReaper57]

If you dont mind using some plumbers goop to seal the housing, the danner mag 3 is an excellent pump and offers great performance. It is only $45 shipped at www.reefgeek.com i think it is, and offers 350 GPH and 126'' head. This is > than the Hydor L30. The extra head also helps with restrictive blocks.

As for fans, I would seriously go with 120mm if possible, and get the aluminum ones at svc.com or whatever it is...they are on sale for 9.99+ shipping. They offer >80 CFM and are only 31 DB.

Personally, I hate loud systems, and if im going to spend so much money on a w/c system, I want it to be quiet.

If you dont mind the noise of 55 DB, though, the 85 cfm 80mm fans will work .

Oh, be sure to get or make a shroud for your heater core. This will increase cooling capacity by appx. 40%.

 

[OldM3ta]

If you dont mind using some plumbers goop to seal the housing, the danner mag 3 is an excellent pump and offers great performance. It is only $45 shipped at www.reefgeek.com i think it is, and offers 350 GPH and 126'' head. This is > than the Hydor L30. The extra head also helps with restrictive blocks.

As for fans, I would seriously go with 120mm if possible, and get the aluminum ones at svc.com or whatever it is...they are on sale for 9.99+ shipping. They offer >80 CFM and are only 31 DB.

Personally, I hate loud systems, and if im going to spend so much money on a w/c system, I want it to be quiet.

If you dont mind the noise of 55 DB, though, the 85 cfm 80mm fans will work .

Oh, be sure to get or make a shroud for your heater core. This will increase cooling capacity by appx. 40%.

Thanks again for the info.. happen to have the link on how to fully maximize the mod of my 77 bonneville heatercore? How much CFM's should I be pushing on it....

Those svc.com fans are over 80 cfms' a piece, 30 DB each? for a combined 60 DB?

 

[DarkenReaper57]

Thanks again for the info.. happen to have the link on how to fully maximize the mod of my 77 bonneville heatercore? How much CFM's should I be pushing on it....

Those svc.com fans are over 80 cfms' a piece, 30 DB each? for a combined 60 DB?

When you have two objects emitting sound at 30 DB each, I dont think you add them to get a resultant DB level...there is some sort of equation to figure it out, but I forget it...its been a while since I studied that in physics . Anyway, my point is, the combined sound will not be 60 DB...it would be 33 or so.

As for modding your heater core, id take a look at
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=304440&page=2&pp=30 and http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...25&pagenumber=1

 

[DarkenReaper57]

Ok, found a formula since I was bored and this annoyed me until I figured it out, lol.
NOTE: This only works for sound levels of the same dB level:

Ltot=Li+10 log n

Ltot=Total dB level.
Li=dB level of the sources (this MUST be the same for this eq for to work. In this case this is 30).
n=number of souces

So, with 2 120mm fans emitting a sound intensity level of 30 dB:

Ltot=30+10 log 2
Ltot=33.01.....

I hope this helps anyone who wants to have a quiet system

 

[OldM3ta]

Ok, found a formula since I was bored and this annoyed me until I figured it out, lol.
NOTE: This only works for sound levels of the same dB level:

Ltot=Li+10 log n

Ltot=Total dB level.
Li=dB level of the sources (this MUST be the same for this eq for to work. In this case this is 30).
n=number of souces

So, with 2 120mm fans emitting a sound intensity level of 30 dB:

Ltot=30+10 log 2
Ltot=33.01.....

I hope this helps anyone who wants to have a quiet system

Oh oh... you got yourself in trouble, Mr. How about if it's not the same.. ermmm ?

Lets say we had those two 120mm pushing at 33.01 dB.... and one 80mm pushing at 29 dB for instance?

THANKS

 

[DarkenReaper57]

Oh oh... you got yourself in trouble, Mr. How about if it's not the same.. ermmm ?

Lets say we had those two 120mm pushing at 33.01 dB.... and one 80mm pushing at 29 dB for instance?

THANKS

Bleh, I'm too tired to look it up now. I'll probably figure it out tomorrow...just got back from a LAN...I'm not in the mood to figure out math stuff, lol. Anyway, I'd estimate a dB level of 34, max, for all 3.