cold air vs cold water cooling dicussion

S

SquiDDy

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Messages
336
ok, me and my friend have a debate

wich would cool better

a body of water at - 10 f running through a pipe and block system to your cpu

or a body of air at at - 10 f running through a pipe and block system to your cpu

now, im 999999999999999999999999999.99999999999999999999999 percent sure that watter would cool alot better, but my friend seems to think otherwise,

now remember, both the watter and air are at the same temps within the cooling system, not like vapo chill vs normal watter cooling where the watter isnt as cold as the vapo chilled air

please help us settle this

ian- water

and catsonar- air
 
No, really, it's not a debate or a vote. Your friend is a tool, and has no idea what physics is.

The water works better.
 
Depends on alot of things. What heatsink and what fan? What pump and what waterblock?
 
this is all hypotheticly, same blocks for each, the air would be running thru tubing like a watercooling system
 
Air through a tube? The thing would probley burn up :p Water all the way.
 
i don't know if this is absolutly correct but since water is a liquid, that would mean that molecules are stacked up on each other. When one gets hot, the molecules conduct the heat to the other molecules which are nearby, thus neutralizing the heat. With Air, molecules are spaced apart so when a molecule gets hot, it stays hot for a longer period. So water would be a much better choice. Also, since water's specific heat capacity (how much energy it needs to increase a volume of water by 1 C) is much higher than air's specific heat capacity, water would need more energy (heat) to heat it up, thus, the air will heat up and decrese the cooling effect while the water will stay cool and keep on cooling the cpu

That's what i think anyways
 
water wins since it has a larger thermal conductivity

water is k=0.59W/m*k

air is k=0.022.3 W/m*k


That is why you layer in the winter, and styrofoam cups are good insulators since the air is an amazing insulator, water isnt.

Thus water would transfer the heat way better, that is why water cooling is better and why air cooling isnt the best.
 
A practical example:

It is 35 degrees outside. You take off all your clothes and go stand outside. Brrrr. Mrs. Thomas, the neighbor lady, calls the cops.

Mrs. Thomas' pool is 35 degrees. You take off all your clothes and jump in. Brrrrrrrrrr. Mrs. Thomas calls the cops to retrieve your frozen corpse.

Picture these two scenarios, and imagine in which one you would feel cold more quickly.
 
if both the air and the water heat sink remove the same about of heat from the cpu with the given flwo rate of the air and water, then the cpu temp will be the same at a given load. it does not matter how you remove the heat, air or water, the cpu will be at the same temp. it is more about the hs efficentcy not if it cools with water or air.
 
Water will cool better for a given flow rate. Think then of this example, how much heat does it take to heat up a litre of water, think of a stove as an example, then think how easy one can heat up a cubic meter of air with even a lighter. Water has a huge heat capacity, air on the other hand does not.

Thus water is better, think of which is the best cooling for a computer water, why? well it can never go below ambient, so that isnt the reason. The reason is that it can transfer the heat from the cpu so quickly! if air were better we wouldnt use a heatsink we would just use one big fan blowing on the core. Think of how fast you cpu would die if all you used is a big fan. The heatsink absorbs this huge amount of heat and gives it a larger surface area for which the air from a fan can be of use.

If you could just water cool directly on the core we would but we cant that is why they use a thin layer of copper since copper has such a great thermal capacity, in that it is able to transfer the heat so well.


Hope that clears it up.
 
specific heat of water is > specific heat of air
basic physics explains it all...
 
Air would cool as well as water, if the air velocity was high enough. You would need a stright line block with minimal base thickness, and a MASSIVE airpump running through pressure-safe tubing.

Now if your looking at same blocks, same flowrate, only diff is cooling material, water is the better system.

Aircooling is often teh cheaper solution, and the easier to work with solution. Watercooling is often the quieter solution and the better performing solution. Each side has its tradeoffs, it's just how things are.
 
Alright, here I am, Catsonar, you know, the bad guy in this discussion, well it's not so much that I'm agaisnt water, you guy's have poven me wrong. It's just that the thought of having water in a computer( electroncs and water don't mix very well). Well my question is now, then why is it that in " High end" cooling systems( for example in the L-Mach 3.8 with the pentium 4 3.2) use Vapochill? I mean can water also push a CPU to 3.8 or higher and keep it stable like Vapochill.

See the reason my friend and I began to debate this is because, I'm experimenting, my goal being, to design and make a cooling system that is quiet, simple, small( yet powerful), Universal compatabllity will all cases, similar performance as the Vapochill, and most important a lot more affordable than the Vapochill( which puts a hole in your pocket). Basically I'm just perfecting the idea. bringing a high end product to a midrange market.

I 've liked all the posting opinins( kudos to all that have contributed to this debate) Thx.

PS: if some one could help me find the blueprints of the Vapochill, that would be like handing me a Bar of gold. Oh, and about the physics involved in this project, lets just say that in the Science department, "i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed", and when i say that I'm not the sharpest "TOOL" it's in a good way, not like earlier in the thread, how this word was used to make me sound like an idiot . But hey, i'll forgive you on that one. I was the kid in the back of physics class " sleeping". "Dam it"

Post more on what you think about the Water vs Air descussion, or what do you think about my idea. The more opinions the better the pieces of info come together to morph or evolve into a better understanding, and that Ladies and Gentleman that is the beauty of HARDFORUMS. thx once again.

This is Catsonar signing off

Till next time everyone.

:D
 
Originally posted by Catsonar
Alright, here I am, Catsonar, you know, the bad guy in this discussion, well it's not so much that I'm agaisnt water, you guy's have poven me wrong. It's just that the thought of having water in a computer( electroncs and water don't mix very well). Well my question is now, then why is it that in " High end" cooling systems( for example in the L-Mach 3.8 with the pentium 4 3.2) use Vapochill? I mean can water also push a CPU to 3.8 or higher and keep it stable like Vapochill.

See the reason my friend and I began to debate this is because, I'm experimenting, my goal being, to design and make a cooling system that is quiet, simple, small( yet powerful), Universal compatabllity will all cases, similar performance as the Vapochill, and most important a lot more affordable than the Vapochill( which puts a hole in your pocket). Basically I'm just perfecting the idea. bringing a high end product to a midrange market.

I 've liked all the posting opinins( kudos to all that have contributed to this debate) Thx.

PS: if some one could help me find the blueprints of the Vapochill, that would be like handing me a Bar of gold. Oh, and about the physics involved in this project, lets just say that in the Science department, "i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed", and when i say that I'm not the sharpest "TOOL" it's in a good way, not like earlier in the thread, how this word was used to make me sound like an idiot . But hey, i'll forgive you on that one. I was the kid in the back of physics class " sleeping". "Dam it"

Post more on what you think about the Water vs Air descussion, or what do you think about my idea. The more opinions the better the pieces of info come together to morph or evolve into a better understanding, and that Ladies and Gentleman that is the beauty of HARDFORUMS. thx once again.

This is Catsonar signing off

Till next time everyone.

:D
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I think you mean 'reap' in your sig

As far as your idea... do you have any more info as to what you're doing? You're going to need a way to cool the air you're using if you are even going to be able to get your plans off the ground... if you're going to get sub-ambient temperatures with the air alone (let alone the processor) you need to chill the air somehow.
 
Dam Diredesire, you answered pretty quick, i thouht no one would be up at this hour

Oh and sorry for posting twice, tried deleting one of them but the bulleton didn't let me
 
well i have a mini freezer, in which the unit in it to cool it has been taken out, i'm looking at that to get an idea on cooling then with Vapochill blueprints as my guide, make my own system from scratch, of course with the help of a friend that works with AC units that i know.
 
There is no ideal product yet, but if you want to try, good luck man.

Aircooling can be VERY good, but it takes a properly designed chassis for this, which no case I have seen yet is designed for. The other edge of this sword is that the heatsink would have to be designed ffor the case, in much the way 1U heatsinks are designed to use the existing direct air from teh front fans to do the work.

Something using heatpipes to extend the usable fina area and width would be good, but the problem is thermal losses from the large amount of heatpipes to do this would be a hell of an engineering feat. If it could be done however, you could in theory use a 120mm fan to achieve noise to performance ratios that are better than any aircooler we have currently.

Problem with the heatpipe idea even if it works is space. The CPU unit alone would be absolutely massive, and would take motherboard design standards to have it work.

I could see some kind of weird setup using a heatsink channel where all teh heatpipes couple to it, and the channel has a set of 120mm low speed fans to do teh work, but that is almost as hard to deal with as watercooling since all teh components are attatched to a single device.

Phase change cooling is very risky, too risky for mainstream. Phase change is to computer overclocking as nitrous oxide is to autmotive racing. Both are just slightly over the top. And both are not suited for the average joe.
 
Originally posted by Catsonar
Dam Diredesire, you answered pretty quick, i thouht no one would be up at this hour

Oh and sorry for posting twice, tried deleting one of them but the bulleton didn't let me
Click to expand...

Just delete the content of one of the posts ;D

And speaking of which, aren't you the guy with the A7n266-VM? Did you ever try that mod?
 
Hey you remember, yeah i had the board for a little while longer, but i didn't have time to do a mod because of work, I ended up buying the Abit NF7-S 2.0. Sold the board. Sorry about that diredesire.
 
Originally posted by Catsonar
Hey you remember, yeah i had the board for a little while longer, but i didn't have time to do a mod because of work, I ended up buying the Abit NF7-S 2.0. Sold the board. Sorry about that diredesire.
Click to expand...

Heh, no big deal :D
 
Originally posted by Kadarom Douhrek
Air





I don't know of too many ice pumps.:D ;)
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Water can be chilled to below 0F without freezing (supercritical cooling). Keeping water in motion will also help in keeping it from freezing.
 
that would have to be water.

water conducts better heat, and air gets hotter quicker. just think about how your car radiator works, and why you have to bleed the system... getting rid of the air... so that it wont overheat.

:D
 
basic physics explains it all...
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Just open any basic physics textbook and the answer is right there. Nothing to discuss unless you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.
 
Dont take my total word for it

Water would be the most effiecient in a 4-8 hour gaming system

But air is cheeper and say you run your computer (with 10F air) for 6 months straight

The water will begin to heat up a bit.

Now yes water takes longer to heat up, but it takes longer to cool down so you water entering your rad might be 40 and come out 35.

Where as,with a constant 10F outside temp, air will yes be hotter for the 4-8 hour system.

But 6 months later, with efficent ways of removing the hot air, 10F air will be pushed into your system toward your cpu creating the same exact thing cooling. Whereas the water will heat up and you cant change the water.
 
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