Apple to make the App Store less intuitive with more prompts to level the playing field, accidently rolls it out ahead of ruling.

Lakados said:
The head-scratcher is will the EU force Apple to treat their own store as a non-trusted source and require them to have all the same prompts as 3'rd parties which by their very nature can not be implicitly trusted.
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Apple will vet (will see if it will hold) which 3d party store it allow, I am not sure why the EU force them for their store too be non trusted, yes all the same prompts as 3rd parties store, but you already have prompt on your current iOS store (at least me, I often have to click (or show my face) to install apps), which additional prompt are we talking about ?, I already have to confirm that I want to install the app with a promp, already have to let the app access anything outside it VM sandbox (camera, gps, etc...) for the Apple Store app, what additional prompt me installing an app from the Microsoft-Amazon-Google store should I want than that (that will than be forced back on the Apple store) ?

All the app sold on a third party store will still be managed and validated by Apple that include scanning for malware and what not, the law (if Apple solution) is not very strong on telling them what to do, if next year only Steam-Microsoft-Google-Amazon end up having store.

They only tell them to have a similar user experience, they can still treat their own store differently internally if they want.
 
Lakados said:
The head-scratcher is will the EU force Apple to treat their own store as a non-trusted source and require them to have all the same prompts as 3'rd parties which by their very nature can not be implicitly trusted.
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Apple has made it very clear in their press release that side loading is a "risk" and Apple clearly wants you to agree with this notion. It's unfair for Apple to claim that apps not from their store is a risk, so if the EU is pushing them to say the same thing for apps from the Apple store then I see it as fair. We don't need big brother Apple to tell us what is or isn't trusted computing. Apple is clearly abusing their position.
 
DukenukemX said:
We don't need big brother Apple to tell us what is or isn't trusted computing
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It is a nice service, if Apple want to have a store that allow for app are vaslty vetted by them that nice, specially if competing store are easy to install.

But here it seem that the implementation will still be only for apple vetted app on the competing app store anyway.
 
bah, most apps are subscription based rubbish anyways. (slams cane down on porch).
 
Personally, I would prefer things remain as they are. As long as the things I use are secure, easy to use and have been properly vetted, I am content. It is a phone, not a computer, I do very specific things on it during the day and otherwise, as long as I am home not using it, except on the toilet. :)
 
M76 said:
Why is it a clown world that they want the company abusing its monopoly to allow some competition?

Imagine if MS was locking down your PC and wouldn't allow you to install software from anywhere but the MS store? Would you consider it a good thing? "Oh but that's different" Is it, really? I don't think so. A smartphone is just a portable computer, so much so that many people don't even use a PC anymore they just use their smartphone for everything that they used to do on PC.
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Considering Android owns 65% of the EU market I think the EU should go after Google, not Apple. Seems like Google is the one with a monopoly in mobile operating systems. The US is the only country in the world where Apple's mobile market share is bigger than Google's.

1709558430107.png


If Microsoft did it with Windows then I would look at the competition instead. You may not like it, but the closed ecosystem that Apple offers is a selling point for many people. I was long considering Apple for my first "smart" phone, myself, but I couldn't justify the cost versus features when comparing to similar Android phones. I don't need the kind of control I want in my PC as I need in my phone.
 
Nicklebon said:
Phones are special because they have access to our lives in ways most other computing devices do not. For example my laptop never been in a bathroom or locker room but my phone has. As I said earlier Apple has more to loose when it comes to their store. As has been shown already they do a better job curating. When some app goes awry and is busted for whatever most people aren't going to stop and think now where did that app come from. Instead it will be damn that insecure iphone. You sunny blue sky people seem to have either short memories or are willfully ignorant of the past. I prefer my walled Apple garden in the same way I prefer my gated community. Certainly not all riff raff is kept out but most is and most of the time that is good enough.
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This argument and all of the related ones made in this thread...

You do realize that you DO NOT have to ever use these other app stores?

No one is forcing you to step out of your 'sense of security'.

People bemoaned Steams' 30% fee for games on their platform. But when Apple does it, 👍 and they want 17% even from the other app stores? Why? It's not for your security, that's for sure. I'll let you figure this one out.
 
Armenius said:
Considering Android owns 65% of the EU market I think the EU should go after Google, not Apple. Seems like Google is the one with a monopoly in mobile operating systems. The US is the only country in the world where Apple's mobile market share is bigger than Google's.
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Why not both? The only problem is that Android does allow sideloading, and therefore does allow third party stores. The only reason to get Android involved is because the default app store is Google's Play Store.
why-not-both-why-not.gif

If Microsoft did it with Windows then I would look at the competition instead. You may not like it, but the closed ecosystem that Apple offers is a selling point for many people.
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The average iPhone user isn't aware of any of this. iPhone is a fashion statement for people who don't want to appear poor. You see a lot of Americans with iPhones because Americans are obsessed with trying not to look poor. If iPhone users knew how often Apple gives law enforcement their data, then things would be very different. It's the same problem for Android users as well.
a6E1Lo2_460s.jpg
 
DukenukemX said:
You see a lot of Americans with iPhones because Americans are obsessed with trying not to look poor.
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Samsung prices certainly are not the opposite. That galaxy fold damn near 2k usd.

I do flash around my paid off iphone 13 regular though lol.
 
Darunion said:
Samsung prices certainly are not the opposite. That galaxy fold damn near 2k usd.

I do flash around my paid off iphone 13 regular though lol.
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Samsung is trying to be the Android version of the iPhone. Me personally I wouldn't use a Samsung device because they tend to lock the boot loader hard while offering devices without an SD card slot. You can unlock the boot loader for some Samsung devices, especially ones from Europe. The Exynos chips are usually fine with installing custom roms while the Qualcomm versions are not. There are a number of Samsung devices with SD Card slots but it's usually not their flagship iPhone killer phones. The Exynos is generally sold in Europe while America tends to get the Qualcomm variants of Samsung devices, probably due to Qualcomm owning like 95% of the patents for CDMA and LTE.
 
Armenius said:
Considering Android owns 65% of the EU market I think the EU should go after Google, not Apple. Seems like Google is the one with a monopoly in mobile operating systems. The US is the only country in the world where Apple's mobile market share is bigger than Google's.


If Microsoft did it with Windows then I would look at the competition instead. You may not like it, but the closed ecosystem that Apple offers is a selling point for many people. I was long considering Apple for my first "smart" phone, myself, but I couldn't justify the cost versus features when comparing to similar Android phones. I don't need the kind of control I want in my PC as I need in my phone.
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Why would they need to go after google? Android has always allowed third party apps it was Apple who made it impossible to users to install programs from any other source than their store.
If you want you can stay within the google play ecosystem on an android phone also. It is up to the user. So really iphone offers no more security, only less choice. Unless you consider protecting users from themselves as security. But you know the mantra, those who are willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither. And ironically with apple products that is exactly what you get.

And BTW I do wish they'd actually go after android phones, but not for this reason, but to force them to unlock their bootloaders.
 
M76 said:
Why would they need to go after google? Android has always allowed third party apps it was Apple who made it impossible to users to install programs from any other source than their store.
If you want you can stay within the google play ecosystem on an android phone also. It is up to the user. So really iphone offers no more security, only less choice. Unless you consider protecting users from themselves as security. But you know the mantra, those who are willing to give up freedom for security deserve neither. And ironically with apple products that is exactly what you get.

And BTW I do wish they'd actually go after android phones, but not for this reason, but to force them to unlock their bootloaders.
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Google does have some anti-competitive behavior, such as strict requirements for apps and tool placements if you want access to the Play Store. Users can still sideload, of course, but the company still really, really discourages OEMs from steering singers to alternative app stores.

I'm of mixed minds. I certainly wouldn't mind more app choices, and I've long thought a simple solution with notarized apps/marketplaces would be enough (only basic security/legality checks). Apple's current offering to the EU is onerous, to put it mildly.

At the same time, Apple's argument isn't completely without merit. Android is disproportionately affected by malware, and a large part of that stems from third-party stores that don't do a good job (if any) of screening apps. There's also malware and scams that encourage inexperienced users to sideload harmful software. iOS isn't immune to security threats even in its walled-off form, but it's still been generally cleaner than Android.
 
Aurelius said:
Google does have some anti-competitive behavior, such as strict requirements for apps and tool placements if you want access to the Play Store. Users can still sideload, of course, but the company still really, really discourages OEMs from steering singers to alternative app stores.
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I'm not exactly sure how Google discourages OEMs from steering people away from their Play Store. I'm also OK with Google filtering their app store because it's their app store. As long as they don't prevent me from installing my apps through side loading or F-Droid.
At the same time, Apple's argument isn't completely without merit. Android is disproportionately affected by malware, and a large part of that stems from third-party stores that don't do a good job (if any) of screening apps. There's also malware and scams that encourage inexperienced users to sideload harmful software. iOS isn't immune to security threats even in its walled-off form, but it's still been generally cleaner than Android.
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As an Android user I've never seen an Android device with malware. Especially when you consider the only way to get infected is to have a rooted device, which really doesn't exist outside of people who actually go through the trouble to root their device. I have seen people install a bunch of junk off the Play Store that is literally doing everything they can to get the users attention for ads. The only known Android devices I've seen with malware are Kodi boxes, which come with malware and root from factory. Probably the reason people stopped buying Kodi boxes. Pegasus is something that has infected Android devices but according to Google it has only infected a few Android device. Pegasus has on the other hand infected 50 thousand devices, so if Google is correct then that's a lot of infected Apple devices. Pegasus is a zero click infection, which should sound familiar. The problem with iOS and thereby iPhone is that how do you know you're infected with anything if Apple hasn't caught onto Pegasus and Triangulation? Who exactly is Apple trying to protect here? If you're dumb then no amount of protection from Apple will save you, but if you're tech savvy enough to side load an alternative web browser and remove Safari from you iPhone, then you can't even protect yourself even if you weren't dumb. It's like the difference of a Windows user who never installs anti-virus and never gets infected because they're not downloading anything from anywhere, while a person with 3 anti-virus programs installed was able to get hundreds of infections. If you know, you know.
https://fossbytes.com/are-android-devices-less-prone-to-pegasus-than-iphones/

"At the 2017 Security Analyst Summit held by Kaspersky Lab, researchers revealed that Pegasus was available for Android in addition to iOS. Its functionality is similar to the iOS version, but the mode of attack is different. The Android version tries to gain root access (similar to jailbreaking in iOS); if it fails, it asks the user for permissions that enable it to harvest at least some data. At the time Google said that only a few Android devices had been infected."
 
DukenukemX said:
I'm not exactly sure how Google discourages OEMs from steering people away from their Play Store. I'm also OK with Google filtering their app store because it's their app store. As long as they don't prevent me from installing my apps through side loading or F-Droid.
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Well, I can say that Google recently made it so a shitload of my devices are not able to sign into any Google services even through the web portals because they don't have the play store, but I am not able to install the play store on them because of the nature of their most recent tracking updates and they violate a few regulations I need to follow so yeah, sort of a PITA, it just breaks a lot of compatibilities. So even if you take that device and go to youtube.com and sign in, it just loops you back to the sign-in page, no explanation, no error, it just never actually signs in, same if you try to access docs, or sheets, Gmail, meetup, the works, it completely kills all functionality with google classroom services. Which for a controller for Google Classroom, very much defeats its intended purpose and functionality.
 
DukenukemX said:
As an Android user I've never seen an Android device with malware. Especially when you consider the only way to get infected is to have a rooted device, which really doesn't exist outside of people who actually go through the trouble to root their device. I have seen people install a bunch of junk off the Play Store that is literally doing everything they can to get the users attention for ads. The only known Android devices I've seen with malware are Kodi boxes, which come with malware and root from factory. Probably the reason people stopped buying Kodi boxes. Pegasus is something that has infected Android devices but according to Google it has only infected a few Android device. Pegasus has on the other hand infected 50 thousand devices, so if Google is correct then that's a lot of infected Apple devices. Pegasus is a zero click infection, which should sound familiar. The problem with iOS and thereby iPhone is that how do you know you're infected with anything if Apple hasn't caught onto Pegasus and Triangulation? Who exactly is Apple trying to protect here? If you're dumb then no amount of protection from Apple will save you, but if you're tech savvy enough to side load an alternative web browser and remove Safari from you iPhone, then you can't even protect yourself even if you weren't dumb. It's like the difference of a Windows user who never installs anti-virus and never gets infected because they're not downloading anything from anywhere, while a person with 3 anti-virus programs installed was able to get hundreds of infections. If you know, you know.
https://fossbytes.com/are-android-devices-less-prone-to-pegasus-than-iphones/
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I used to see it all the time, Android has a number of known drive-by vulnerabilities, and those stupid popup .io gaming sites are littered with them.
They also work on ChromeOS to a lesser degree, there though the infections arent pervasive and simply rebooting the machine will clean them, but that still gives the bad actors more than enough time to grab a few usernames and passwords.
 
Lakados said:
Well, I can say that Google recently made it so a shitload of my devices are not able to sign into any Google services even through the web portals because they don't have the play store, but I am not able to install the play store on them because of the nature of their most recent tracking updates and they violate a few regulations I need to follow so yeah, sort of a PITA, it just breaks a lot of compatibilities. So even if you take that device and go to youtube.com and sign in, it just loops you back to the sign-in page, no explanation, no error, it just never actually signs in, same if you try to access docs, or sheets, Gmail, meetup, the works, it completely kills all functionality with google classroom services. Which for a controller for Google Classroom, very much defeats its intended purpose and functionality.
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I have a few devices without any Google stuff installed, so I gotta see if this is a thing. I use Aurora in place of Google Play.
Lakados said:
I used to see it all the time, Android has a number of known drive-by vulnerabilities, and those stupid popup .io gaming sites are littered with them.
They also work on ChromeOS to a lesser degree, there though the infections arent pervasive and simply rebooting the machine will clean them, but that still gives the bad actors more than enough time to grab a few usernames and passwords.
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Drive-by vulnerabilities? Popup.io gaming sites? I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
DukenukemX said:
Drive-by vulnerabilities? Popup.io gaming sites? I have no idea what you're talking about.
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They are shitty web gaming sites, hosted emulators that run in a web browser that sort of stuff, they get closed and blocked every couple of days but they just change their domain name slightly and pop up as another site on a .io domain elsewhere, the pages make flashy happy things trying to trick kids into clicking on things and they get advertised on a lot of kids youtube channels, etc. 100% predatory and have resulted in us blocking anything to or from a .io domain and operating a very explicit allowed filter on that rule instead
DukenukemX said:
I have a few devices without any Google stuff installed, so I gotta see if this is a thing. I use Aurora in place of Google Play.
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This very much is, if Google decides your system no longer meets their GMS requirements they just block you out.
https://www.android.com/intl/en_ca/gms/

And the devices in question Google has removed from their certified list, not even that old 6 months.

Most recent removal from their GMS program were these.
https://www.viewsonic.com/global/products/viewboard/?f_apps=ViewBoard

Google was all about these just last year at all the Education and Business trade shows, then they just killed them, they no longer work with the Google Classroom or Business suites.
We can side-load some options and find workarounds, but it's not a fun curveball they threw us.
 
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DukenukemX said:
I'm not exactly sure how Google discourages OEMs from steering people away from their Play Store. I'm also OK with Google filtering their app store because it's their app store. As long as they don't prevent me from installing my apps through side loading or F-Droid.
Click to expand...
It's pretty simple: if an OEM wants the Play Store, they also have to accept the larger suite of Google apps as well as certain terms regarding default placement (such as the Google search widget in a certain spot on the home screen). If the OEM would rather steer people to its own store, or that of a preferred partner... say goodbye to Gmail and all those other programs. Enthusiasts know how to get those apps on regardless, but the vast majority of users don't.


DukenukemX said:
As an Android user I've never seen an Android device with malware. Especially when you consider the only way to get infected is to have a rooted device, which really doesn't exist outside of people who actually go through the trouble to root their device. I have seen people install a bunch of junk off the Play Store that is literally doing everything they can to get the users attention for ads. The only known Android devices I've seen with malware are Kodi boxes, which come with malware and root from factory. Probably the reason people stopped buying Kodi boxes. Pegasus is something that has infected Android devices but according to Google it has only infected a few Android device. Pegasus has on the other hand infected 50 thousand devices, so if Google is correct then that's a lot of infected Apple devices. Pegasus is a zero click infection, which should sound familiar. The problem with iOS and thereby iPhone is that how do you know you're infected with anything if Apple hasn't caught onto Pegasus and Triangulation? Who exactly is Apple trying to protect here? If you're dumb then no amount of protection from Apple will save you, but if you're tech savvy enough to side load an alternative web browser and remove Safari from you iPhone, then you can't even protect yourself even if you weren't dumb. It's like the difference of a Windows user who never installs anti-virus and never gets infected because they're not downloading anything from anywhere, while a person with 3 anti-virus programs installed was able to get hundreds of infections. If you know, you know.
https://fossbytes.com/are-android-devices-less-prone-to-pegasus-than-iphones/
Click to expand...
Anecdotal experience isn't the same as broader proof, though. I've followed cybersecurity researchers for years, and there are plenty of Android malware infections. They frequently come from large but poorly managed third-party stores that let infected apps through, but they can also happen through the web and sideloaded apps. For example, one of the most common sources of Android malware infections, FakeInst, masquerades as an app installer but is actually meant to send premium text messages once it compromises your phone.

This isn't to say that Apple should wall off downloads as it has so far. I'm just pointing out that Google isn't innocent here, and that there are consequences to giving people their choice of where to get apps.
 
Lakados said:
They are shitty web gaming sites, hosted emulators that run in a web browser that sort of stuff, they get closed and blocked every couple of days but they just change their domain name slightly and pop up as another site on a .io domain elsewhere, the pages make flashy happy things trying to trick kids into clicking on things and they get advertised on a lot of kids youtube channels, etc. 100% predatory and have resulted in us blocking anything to or from a .io domain and operating a very explicit allowed filter on that rule instead
Click to expand...
Sounds like a good reason to use adblock. I'm not sure what these websites can do without root? Also is this universal with Firefox as well?
This very much is, if Google decides your system no longer meets their GMS requirements they just block you out.
https://www.android.com/intl/en_ca/gms/
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Speaking of Google blocking, they're blocking root devices to use RCS.
https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/1/24087418/google-messages-blocking-rcs-on-rooted-android-devices
There's also a fix for it.
https://xdaforums.com/t/module-play-integrity-fix-safetynet-fix.4607985/page-163
Google was all about these just last year at all the Education and Business trade shows, then they just killed them, they no longer work with the Google Classroom or Business suites.
We can side-load some options and find workarounds, but it's not a fun curveball they threw us.
Click to expand...
It's not the same problem as Apple with side loading. Google is a dick, but if enough people hate dealing with them then alternatives do exist. If you hate dealing with Apple, no alternatives exist.
Aurelius said:
It's pretty simple: if an OEM wants the Play Store, they also have to accept the larger suite of Google apps as well as certain terms regarding default placement (such as the Google search widget in a certain spot on the home screen). If the OEM would rather steer people to its own store, or that of a preferred partner... say goodbye to Gmail and all those other programs. Enthusiasts know how to get those apps on regardless, but the vast majority of users don't.
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There are third party apps that support Gmail. FairEmail is very popular. It's a different story if you really want to use the Gmail app itself, but it's not like Google is making it super hard. Not that Google should be doing it, but again it's not on the same level as Apple's situation.
Anecdotal experience isn't the same as broader proof, though. I've followed cybersecurity researchers for years, and there are plenty of Android malware infections. They frequently come from large but poorly managed third-party stores that let infected apps through, but they can also happen through the web and sideloaded apps. For example, one of the most common sources of Android malware infections, FakeInst, masquerades as an app installer but is actually meant to send premium text messages once it compromises your phone.
Click to expand...
FakeInst is from 2012. I'm not saying infections don't happen on Android, but it isn't a realistic threat. Most modern Android smart phones come with some sort of anti-virus program that in my experience will block you from installing legitimate apps that are suspicious.
This isn't to say that Apple should wall off downloads as it has so far. I'm just pointing out that Google isn't innocent here, and that there are consequences to giving people their choice of where to get apps.
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This goes both ways. Apple makes everything standard on the iPhone, but this allows vectors like Triangulation to easily infect iOS devices without detection for years. This whole thing assumes that Apple is trustworthy while Google isn't. They're both multi-billion dollar companies, you can't trust either of them. The only way to deal with these companies is to not give them much power.

Also Apple got fined for $2 Billion.

View: https://youtu.be/LVVhOTA1nJw?si=6rq9-kJyuDR4B4Dr
 
M76 said:
Why is it a clown world that they want the company abusing its monopoly to allow some competition?

Imagine if MS was locking down your PC and wouldn't allow you to install software from anywhere but the MS store? Would you consider it a good thing? "Oh but that's different" Is it, really? I don't think so. A smartphone is just a portable computer, so much so that many people don't even use a PC anymore they just use their smartphone for everything that they used to do on PC.
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This is exactly what Samsung is doing with their USA (U1) aka unlocked phones. Been that way for years. Sure, international versions are purchasable but carrier compatibility isn't guaranteed, best speeds/bands, etc. And too, even if unlocked and custom rom is installed, the device is permanently altered (at least to the end user!) where even restoring 100% factory still renders apps like health and financial unable to run due to alleged mods. I get Apple, jailbreaking is long dead and untethered jailbreak and other "hacks" don't count but so be it. I just live with the way it is. Things have come a long ways that allow us to do a LOT more than in the past and root is pretty much no longer a necessity as it was in the years past. It was fun while it lasted. And there's plenty of other devices out there that still can be rooted. Of course it's a game of cat and mouse if you need to run things that just refuse to run on rooted devices.

If PCs got to that point I'd build my own and run nix exclusively. And if that doesn't work there's plenty of old stuff in my junkyard that still runs fine.

This is why ARM on Windows is essentially DOA until things change. People want to run their software not be restricted to a tiny serving.
 
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