unlimited budget server/workstation, EPYC 9174F?

NateD

Weaksauce
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I'm going to build a workstation, mostly for programming, that also does some server tasks (NAS, software builds). The budget is effectively unlimited, though I don't want to spend needlessly.

Looking around, I see AMD Genoa is out soon. What do you think of using the EPYC 9174F for a workstation/HEDT? Using ECC RAM sounds nice, as more stability than I usually get from my builds would be appreciated.
 
If you only need a 16 core CPU, it doesn't seem like Epyc would be the way to go. ECC ram is available for Intel on the W680 platform and I believe AM5 supports it as well.
 
EPYC having the latest tech brings other benefits though, doesn't it? 256MB L3 cache, 6nm, other things?

Seems that it's still unknown whether AM5 will support ECC. I'm not stuck with AMD, using Intel would be OK.
 
If you have a lot of budget I would frankly rethink using your workstation has a NAS (if you think to even need a NAS), having the NAS down because you're updating your workstation Linux or anything like that....how much power it would use to stay awake 24/24 to access your NAS on vacation if you are not confident into your wake over internet and so on, you probably will have a machine more than strong enough for a NAS task already lying around or will after adding a new machine.

From your description, you do not seem to need PCI-LANE or much if any feature that EPYC, Threadripper pro would bring ?
 
From your description, you do not seem to need PCI-LANE or much if any feature that EPYC, Threadripper pro would bring ?
Could be right! I don't need tons of PCIe, true. 16 cores/32 threads seems sufficient. I want stable and great performance for workstation and server tasks, ECC. It's not clear if EPYC is good for that, or something else. I thought since it's the latest tech, maybe it's a good choice. If not, what do you guys recommend? Threadripper 3970X?

I wonder if EPYC is more stable, since it's a SoC.

Re: NAS, I get what you're saying, but I'll leave this machine on 24/7 for other reasons and it's just easier to have it also do NAS.
 
Depending on what you want teh server software building part to do, maybe looking at Level1Techs Ultimate DevOps Workstation could bring some inspiration:



Needless to say could be way overboard for a single user.
 
Overboard is fine, the goal in fact! I watched the video, thanks. Damn, 9GB/s -- I'm putting raid0 NVMe SSDs on my list.

Noooo, no budget option. What is the all out option? Spend my money! More importantly though it seems ECC isn't officially supported with Ryzen. It works, but apparently is lacking reporting if you are getting errors. Probably worth it for official ECC support (Threadripper Pro).

Threadripper is Zen2. I probably want Threadripper Pro because it's newer tech (Zen3). 5995WX has 2.7Ghz base clock and I'm not sure I'd make use of 128 threads. Maybe the 5965WX or 5975WX is the better pick.

Or I could go with an Intel Core i9-13900K. Probably enough cores for me and high clock speeds, though 36MB L3 cache versus 128MB with the TR Pro. I'm not sure I'd notice the difference? Maybe the higher L3 comes along with the higher core count.

7950X is Zen4 and power usage isn't as stupid as the 13900K, but no ECC.

Or I could wait for Genoa, or a Zen4 Threadripper. I wouldn't want to wait much longer than the end of November though.

Anything else in the running?
 
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Overboard is fine, the goal in fact! I watched the video, thanks. Damn, 9GB/s -- I'm putting raid0 NVMe SSDs on my list.

Noooo, no budget option. What is the all out option? Spend my money!

Threadripper is Zen2. I probably want Threadripper Pro because it's newer tech (Zen3). 5995WX has 2.7Ghz base clock and I'm not sure I'd make use of 128 threads. Maybe the 5965WX or 5975WX is the better pick.

Or I could go with an Intel Core i9-13900K. Probably enough cores for me and high clock speeds, though 36MB L3 cache versus 128MB with the TR Pro. I'm not sure I'd notice the difference?

Or I could wait for Genoa, or a Zen4 Threadripper. I wouldn't want to wait much longer than the end of November though.

Anything else in the running?
I would avoid the early threadrippers you get more crosed chip latancy whitch can effect things like gaming.

Although not near the budget I used a 3900k with 32gb as a esxi workstation/desktop. It feels more then abundant for any tasks including gaming programming and I can easily spin up vms indipendant of the desktop with ease and performance. This is all on one nvme drive.

If your going to do something like raid 0 nvme I would like to haverelitivly quick local backup on the rig as well. At that point running a nas on the machine as well makes enough sense. You would be able to operate the desktop independently of a stable nas. Although occasionally restarts are required and you will be using extra power.

For a build like that I would go crazy and get a modern epyc chip. The enterprise hardware helps out with stability of a hypersiser if your doing weird stuff like using it as a desktop with pcie passthrough. I've had issues with consumer am4 and older Intel stuff for this.

A 5950 would be a decent budget alternative.
 
For the 13900K I think you need the W680 chipset for the ECC support and combined with DDR-5 ecc offer, that could be rare-pricey way to go and maybe not that much of a saving over more proven DDR-4 Threadripper Pro-Epyc more multi thread powerful affair.
 
Could be right! I don't need tons of PCIe, true. 16 cores/32 threads seems sufficient. I want stable and great performance for workstation and server tasks, ECC. It's not clear if EPYC is good for that, or something else. I thought since it's the latest tech, maybe it's a good choice. If not, what do you guys recommend? Threadripper 3970X?

I wonder if EPYC is more stable, since it's a SoC.

Re: NAS, I get what you're saying, but I'll leave this machine on 24/7 for other reasons and it's just easier to have it also do NAS.
They're all SoC these days - every single one of them (AMD and Intel both, technically).

If you don't need the 128 threads, multiple sockets, or the PCIE lanes, Epyc is overkill and the extra silicon for extra sockets will result in lower core clocks and weaker performance for clock-speed dependent workloads (more of them than you'd expect), and the workstation boards for server CPUs all have quirks too (Even things like the Sage for Intel Scalable). New Threadripper pro with smaller thread counts gets you speed AND cores/lanes - it all depends on what you need (I tend to run multiple 10G links, SAS controllers, etc, so I've got 3960X and 10980XE), but I want higher boost clocks for desktop workloads too, so I end up with HEDT. Generally I don't go for server chips unless I need the RAM quantities in the batshit range (3T+) (and don't get me wrong, I've got a few of those as servers).

For your use case, it ~almost~ sounds like AM5 is really what you're looking for - or alternatively, if you want to chance enterprise loads on hybrid, Z690/790. If you need the RAM, get TR Pro
Overboard is fine, the goal in fact! I watched the video, thanks. Damn, 9GB/s -- I'm putting raid0 NVMe SSDs on my list.
Most can do that now :D
Noooo, no budget option. What is the all out option? Spend my money! More importantly though it seems ECC isn't officially supported with Ryzen. It works, but apparently is lacking reporting if you are getting errors. Probably worth it for official ECC support (Threadripper Pro).
TR Pro has ECC if you want it - what's your RAM target? What will you actually use? AM5/Z690/790 are going to struggle with more than 64G right now as that requires 4 sticks, which results in rather poor timings (which will even affect workstation loads). TR Pro will clock 2TB to the heavens. TR non-Pro will do the same for 256G.
Threadripper is Zen2. I probably want Threadripper Pro because it's newer tech (Zen3). 5995WX has 2.7Ghz base clock and I'm not sure I'd make use of 128 threads. Maybe the 5965WX or 5975WX is the better pick.
I'd go for a smaller one unless you really need 64 cores. I found the 24-32 core range to be the perfect blend between speed and threads - this is a bunch of VM work, storage design, and some video editing (plus some gaming and general desktop use).
Or I could go with an Intel Core i9-13900K. Probably enough cores for me and high clock speeds, though 36MB L3 cache versus 128MB with the TR Pro. I'm not sure I'd notice the difference? Maybe the higher L3 comes along with the higher core count.
Core counts get you cache. The trick there is the RAM - how much do oyu need?
7950X is Zen4 and power usage isn't as stupid as the 13900K, but no ECC.

Or I could wait for Genoa, or a Zen4 Threadripper. I wouldn't want to wait much longer than the end of November though.

Anything else in the running?
That's about it. Honestly, if you want to go all-out on a workstation, go TR Pro with the Asus Sage board and load that sucker up. It'll scream. I'd go for the 5975X for the balance between speed and cores. Love my 3960X.
 
All great info, thanks guys!

64GB RAM would be enough, 32GB too little. I probably don't need > 64GB.

AM5 looks good, but the only options now (7950X and 7600X) don't have ECC. Here's a guy confirming 9 days ago that ECC doesn't work with his 7950X. That's a huge bummer as I have started to really like the 7950X. After seeing that, now it feels bad to pay a lot more for Zen3 (TR Pro). Waiting until sometime in 2023 for a Zen4 TR Pro is too long.

If I get a 7950X now, would I be able to swap the CPU with a Zen4 TR Pro later? Even if not, I could live without ECC until then and replace the CPU and mobo when upgrade timing looks right. Since it does seem like the perfect fit is available now, maybe that's best.

Edit: guy on Reddit says AMD says ECC support is a problem in AGESA and will be fixed in version 1004/1005 (whenever that will be). The 7950X would be good for a long time if ECC gets fixed, else it's a stopgap for Zen4 TR Pro.
 
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All great info, thanks guys!

64GB RAM would be enough, 32GB too little. I probably don't need > 64GB.

AM5 looks good, but the only options now (7950X and 7600X) don't have ECC. Here's a guy confirming 9 days ago that ECC doesn't work with his 7950X. That's a huge bummer as I have started to really like the 7950X. After seeing that, now it feels bad to pay a lot more for Zen3 (TR Pro). Waiting until sometime in 2023 for a Zen4 TR Pro is too long.

If I get a 7950X now, would I be able to swap the CPU with a Zen4 TR Pro later? Even if not, I could live without ECC until then and replace the CPU and mobo when upgrade timing looks right. Since it does seem like the perfect fit is available now, maybe that's best.

Edit: guy on Reddit says AMD says ECC support is a problem in AGESA and will be fixed in version 1004/1005 (whenever that will be). The 7950X would be good for a long time if ECC gets fixed, else it's a stopgap for Zen4 TR Pro.
Definitely not - TR and Consumer use different everything - including a MASSIVELY different socket:

1667860609447.png


Honestly, were I buying now, I'd get a top-end workstation board (pro art from ASUS looks good), 7950X, and see if ECC comes out. Go with 64G for now.
 
Damn, that is quite a difference!

Agreed, 7950X looks like the way to go. Should I buy ECC RAM now? Will it work even before AMD fixes ECC? Edit: Quick Google shows it should. Now to start choosing parts!
 
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Damn, that is quite a difference!

Agreed, 7950X looks like the way to go. Should I buy ECC RAM now? Will it work even before AMD fixes ECC? Edit: Quick Google shows it should. Now to start choosing parts!
Yes, although with DDR5 being as new as it is, I ~might~ arguably go consumer to get higher speeds and let ECC catch up. But I haven't checked ECC on 5 that much - it's not a thing yet in the server space really.
 
I do DBMS engine software development for a living, and I've been doing it on a non-ECC box for the last 5 years, without any stability issues. It's not the way I'd prefer to operate, however given the choice between a heisenevent every couple years, and faster turnaround thanks to processor speeds, I'll take the speed. One possible difference in our scenarios is that I don't keep the only copy of key programs and data on my box, so if something were to get weirdly bit-flipped, it's not hard to recover. YMMV.
 
What tasks exactly will you be doing? Here's a few options:

1.) 64 core epyc milan & supermicro h12ssl-i. If you go for a 7b13 or 7j13 (basically a 7713 built for efficiency) you'll get 64 milan cores that boost to almost the same speed and it'll cost you <$2k for the CPU + motherboard. The savings can be spent on RAM, disk, etc.
2.) If your workload is cache dependent, a 7773X for $4k is a good bet. I haven't personally tested it but I believe it provides large benefits to database queries and such. Since Genoa is out soon maybe wait a bit and they'll drop more in price, but I've seen them drop $100-200/month on ebay fairly recently. There are other 3dvcache Epyc chips but they all have a hefty price premium so I would just bite the bullet and get the 64 core if you're going to spend that much.
3.) Threadripper pro (Threadripper Pro 5995WX or something). These boost higher but are expensive.

If your work benefits from more cores these would be good options. If it's limited more by IPC/clockspeed then you can just drop the core count. At 16 cores the 7950x comes into play if you don't need ECC, but I would wait until they come out with a 3d vcache chip and see if you can get one of those with 16 cores. If you're at all interested in tweaking/overclocking, then I would go for Epyc. You can overclock Epyc Naples & Rome chips and get basically the performance you would out of a threadripper but you'll spend a ton less. I'm not aware of any Milan overclocking yet but it may get figured out eventually as well.

For storage just get an optane P5800x obviously.
 
Optane is dead. Not sure if there’s much out there in the market still 😂
 
One thing is, if you go with a server platform, reboot time is long. So if your daily work has you rebooting more than twice, I would steer clear even if budget is unlimited. (Of course, maybe you could use a kvm switch and swap to a second overpowered workstation while the first one reboots)
 
One thing is, if you go with a server platform, reboot time is long. So if your daily work has you rebooting more than twice, I would steer clear even if budget is unlimited. (Of course, maybe you could use a kvm switch and swap to a second overpowered workstation while the first one reboots)
First question would be, why would someone need to reboot that often, that is not normal. 2nd, if you can not wait 2-4 mins for your high end workstation to reboot, by standing up, taking a quick walk, stretch your legs, get a drink, go pet your dog, you really need to re-evaluate your quality of life :D
 
First question would be, why would someone need to reboot that often, that is not normal. 2nd, if you can not wait 2-4 mins for your high end workstation to reboot, by standing up, taking a quick walk, stretch your legs, get a drink, go pet your dog, you really need to re-evaluate your quality of life :D
Kernel development maybe? I'm not saying it's normal for most, but this thread isn't normal either ;)
 
First question would be, why would someone need to reboot that often, that is not normal. 2nd, if you can not wait 2-4 mins for your high end workstation to reboot, by standing up, taking a quick walk, stretch your legs, get a drink, go pet your dog, you really need to re-evaluate your quality of life :D
2-4? Optimistic I see. Think more like 10.
 
Re: ECC not really being necessary, I usually sit at the computer 10+ hours/day. On what otherwise appears to be a stable machine (passes stress tests), I get a random crash maybe once/month, give or take. It's not the worst thing ever, but for a long time I've been wanting to use ECC and hopefully reduce those occurrences.

I normally appreciate extra speed, but in the past the only noticeable difference I've seen with higher memory speeds is in benchmark scores. Giving that up for more stability sounds like a good trade. Is that the case with the 7950X? For example, 6400MHz vs 4800Mhz RAM.

None of the RAM on the Asus ProArt X670E mobo compatibility list have ECC. As lopoetve predicted, there is not a lot of DDR5 ECC out there right now, as the server market hasn't adopted DDR5 yet. What is there is mostly sold out. I could find only a few options, on directdial.com, all 4800MHz. I agonized and went back and forth. I even ordered some non-ECC RAM last night and cancelled it this morning. I really want to give ECC a go!

Now I've ordered two of these Axiom 32GB DDR5 4800MHz ECC. It's registered, as that was the only option at 32GB. There is a PNY 16GB that says unregistered, but it's too small. After looking at a lot of RAM, I'm skeptical of the specs being accurate. All my searches for ECC get ruined by specs says "ECC: No" or "on-die ECC". Some RAM says ECC but means "on-die", but fails to mention on-die. Blah!

The only way to know for sure that I am not missing noticeable performance is to also buy 2x16GB sticks for $250, swap them, and see if I can tell a difference. Maybe I'll do that, but honestly I'll probably be happy with the ECC performance. Hopefully AMD fixes ECC!

What tasks exactly will you be doing?
If I tell, you'll just say I don't need such a badass computer! :D Most of my work is programming, a lot of it OpenGL UI. Compiling generally happens in the background and only makes me wait occasionally. If I could just get a new OpenGL window to open faster, that'd save me a lot of time. I've been using an Gigabyte Aero 15X laptop (i7-8750H, GTX1070, 32GB RAM, Samsung 960 PRO SSD) for years because I needed to be mobile. That's over, so now I want a workstation that doesn't make me wait and doesn't lag here and there, as the laptop does, especially when I have a lot open.

Other work involves running builds, which take ~10 minutes on the laptop. I sometimes run VMs for testing/debugging. I do 3D modeling with SketchUp which doesn't take much power (except to load), but real time rendering of that with Enscape is very slow and is sent to a VR headset. Lastly I'll have a few background processes (home automation, Plex, Radarr, Sonarr, SabNzb, etc), nothing terribly intense but that I want running all the time and stable so when I'm away I can rely on them being there.

Interesting about the reboot times, I haven't gotten the chance to enjoy that. I rarely need to reboot though, often only once/month or so, when I get a random crash.

I've now ordered:
  • CPU: Ryzen 7950X
  • Cooler: Noctua NH-D15
  • Mobo: Asus ProArt X670E
  • RAM: Axiom 2x32GB RAM, 4800Mhz, ECC
  • SSD: Crucial P3 Plus, 4TB 2280 (4800/4100MB/s read/write)
  • GPU: Asus Strix RTX 4090 OC
  • PSU: Antec SP1300 PSU, 1300W
  • Case: Fractal Meshify 2
The SSD plan is to use this 4TB for now, then when PCIe 5.0 SSDs are out, I'll run 2x2TB of those and use this 4TB for easy backups.

I may throw in some Noctua case fans, but otherwise I think it's a wrap. Thanks for your help everyone!

This turned out to be a pretty standard build with a consumer CPU. It will be pretty awesome I'm sure. I was willing to do something crazier, but the timing/availability wasn't quite right. Maybe next time! I will need another similar build around April for a different location.
 
None of the RAM on the Asus ProArt X670E mobo compatibility list have ECC. As lopoetve predicted, there is not a lot of DDR5 ECC out there right now, as the server market hasn't adopted DDR5 yet. What is there is mostly sold out. I could find only a few options, on directdial.com, all 4800MHz. I agonized and went back and forth. I even ordered some non-ECC RAM last night and cancelled it this morning. I really want to give ECC a go!

First of all, where did you find the ProArt Creator in stock, I've been waiting for it to come in stock for 2 months now?

Second, I'd order some regular DDR5 so you have it to troubleshoot if the ECC doesn't work out of the box.
 
I was going to buy the ProArt from newegg from a scalper at $885, but just before pulling the trigger I found it at Central Computer for $500. I then changed ALL my purchases from newegg to central. Fuck newegg!

The 4090 was harder. I had to buy from an ebay scalper. :( I feel so damned dirty.

Hmm good point on the DDR5, I may do that. Cheers! EDIT: Alright I bought 2x16GB DDR5 6400MHz to compare to the ECC, for science.
 
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A lot of that is device dependent too, doesn't sound like the OP is going to be hanging a ton of stuff off of the PCIe lanes.
Depends a LOT on the BIOS too. I’ve had some that empty are 2 min, and full are 2 min…. And others that are 10 no matter what.
 
Also- ryzen is very bandwidth focused for RAM. Intel is less so. Hence the push for “get fast ram”. Now how much will that matter to your workloads? Hard to say….
 
I can return it if the ECC works and the performance loss doesn't bother me. This article specifically about Ryzen 7000 says I probably won't notice the difference, FWIW.
 
Does anyone have info on Zen 4 supporting registered memory? I can't find anything about it, only some vague stuff about Zen 3 not supporting it.

Registered DRAM uses a different control protocol compared to unregistered one, so the memory controller must be able to support it. For Ryzen, the memory controller is integrated and I cannot find any resource indicated it is supported.
That's the best info I can find. Seems very unlikely for registered memory to be supported. Bummer, but good thing I bought that other memory!
 
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Never on consumer. Last time that happened was with the original socket A boards on the AMD 760 platform I’m aware of. DDR1.
 
If building a workstation you should use 1 to 2 gen old parts, you don't want the problems, hassles and headaches of bleeding edge.
 
If building a workstation you should use 1 to 2 gen old parts, you don't want the problems, hassles and headaches of bleeding edge.
Eh. Depends on the hardware. If you’re going professional it tends to be ok. Consumer is harder. To me both zen4 and AL/RL are transitional platforms. But the professional versions are old right now.
 
2-4? Optimistic I see. Think more like 10.
Servers sure, high end workstations while similar, pending on what hardware, unless you have some serious raid controllers and arrays in them, the ECC check can be pretty quick ?
 
Servers sure, high end workstations while similar, pending on what hardware, unless you have some serious raid controllers and arrays in them, the ECC check can be pretty quick ?
Almost Al the ones I’ve had with server CPUs tend to be on the very long end. But most of them have been HP or Lenovo branded. The one sage board we tested had piles of PMEM in it and that takes forever too
 
I swapped the Antec SP1300 PSU with a Corsair AX1600i. Something here needs to be overkill! :p

Reading more about raid0 with NVMe, it hurts random RW quite a bit. RW with raid0 can be ~77% of a single drive. Large files mostly aren't my use case, so I'll skip raid0. Maybe I'll do raid1 for faster read speeds and easier recovery (still using the 4TB SSD for proper backups).
 
I thought I told you to get the P5800X, what the hell. This build got way too soft :(


Almost Al the ones I’ve had with server CPUs tend to be on the very long end. But most of them have been HP or Lenovo branded. The one sage board we tested had piles of PMEM in it and that takes forever too
Is that what generally causes the long boot times? I don't have a lot of memory by volume in my supermicro boards but all slots are filled and it only takes maybe 2 mins to boot.
 
I thought I told you to get the P5800X, what the hell. This build got way too soft :(



Is that what generally causes the long boot times? I don't have a lot of memory by volume in my supermicro boards but all slots are filled and it only takes maybe 2 mins to boot.
Manufacturer, ram, raid arrays, cpu size ect cause a low boot. Although most server gear is generally in no rush to boot. My slowest is the intel phi server that take a good 3 min to show anything on the screen. I've also had some raid controllers hang boots for computers.

Even with all that bout time has never really been a burden on any desktop or server I've owned. It's not a laptop I can wait a minute once a day
 
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