The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

For me the ODD is like the Window, more trouble than it is worth, ideally, we should get rid of both.

Couldn't agree more on the ODD! For the few times you need it just get an external unit. Way cheaper than the slim internal drives and you can stow it away when you aren't using it...which for me is 99% of the time.
 
Yeah no ODD. Again, this size of case is designed with a USB disk reader if needed. They just don't really have enough use to justify the space they take, and take away from the look of the case. No window, no ODD. Just sleek and stylish.
 
Mockups of some different front I/O options:

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The advantages of a separate section as in #1 and #2 is that it can be upgraded more easily and the ports labels are more legible. I think the M1 style (#2) doesn't work that well here, in part because the front panel feels truncated and imbalanced. It's more of a problem in the horizontal orientation, though.

What if you put the I/O behind a door that can flip/slide/dematerialize? For the M1 style cutout (second option), you could have the door slide up to expose the I/O...can be the same material as the front panel, but maybe put it on a track or use pads to protect the finish from scratches...For the rectangle cutout (first option), you could have a door with a push lock/release. Again, same material as the front panel...


Also, this may be premature, but for the I/O cables on the inside of the case...Could you prerun them to the bottom corner then they are loose from there? I don't need a straight run from the front I/O to the motherboard, and the cables (at least in the M1) are really long. Even if there could just be a 90° from the back of the I/O panel...
 
Tell that to Necere.
Are you somehow suggesting that I haven't been 100% opposed to a window on the PCX from the very beginning? That it was you who for some reason has insisted on trying to shoehorn one in? My position has always been that it doesn't fit the design, and you (and everyone else that has been paying attention to the thread) knows this full well.

As far as ODD support, it fits the design of the PCX. It doesn't look like an abortion, and it's possible to do without any real problems as long as you're not trying to pile in a bunch of other shit that doesn't belong.
 
What if you put the I/O behind a door that can flip/slide/dematerialize? For the M1 style cutout (second option), you could have the door slide up to expose the I/O...can be the same material as the front panel, but maybe put it on a track or use pads to protect the finish from scratches...For the rectangle cutout (first option), you could have a door with a push lock/release. Again, same material as the front panel...


Also, this may be premature, but for the I/O cables on the inside of the case...Could you prerun them to the bottom corner then they are loose from there? I don't need a straight run from the front I/O to the motherboard, and the cables (at least in the M1) are really long. Even if there could just be a 90° from the back of the I/O panel...
The problem I have with doors is that if they're not perfect, they're worse than no door. If the mechanism is too loose, it'll have poor alignment and/or rattle. If it's too tight it'll be difficult to operate and/or strip the finish. It's prone to coming loose over time or breaking. Perfection isn't possible in manufacturing, so whatever you might imagine a door to be like, the reality wouldn't measure up.

Regarding the I/O cables, by "bottom corner" are you referring to the bottom corner of the case (when standing up) or the motherboard? When the case is standing up, the motherboard is in the reverse orientation compared to the M1, such that the PCIe slot is just below the GPU at around the middle of the case. So I'm not sure it'll work the way you're imaging it would.

Anyway, the reason they need to be as long as they are is because different motherboards have the headers in different places, and the cables need to reach. Is it worse to have cables that are a little long that need to be tucked away, or cables that are too short to reach at all?
 
I guess I'm the minority that would like an ODD. I say if it doesn't affect anything else and it fits, why not? This case will look great in my TV entertainment console.
 
I guess I'm the minority that would like an ODD. I say if it doesn't affect anything else and it fits, why not? This case will look great in my TV entertainment console.

Yes, I agree with this statement. I too still use DVDs and Blu-rays as I live in rural Canada and high speed internet is very expensive and not very reliable (yet?).
 
I too still use DVDs and Blu-rays as I live in rural Canada and high speed internet is very expensive and not very reliable (yet?).

How rural are we talking? Are you surfing the forums on dial-up!?

I say if it doesn't affect anything else and it fits, why not?

With the M1 there was a trade-off...you could have the ODD or mount two 2.5" drives behind the front panel. You also had the option to buy the front panel with the ODD slot or without. It was a really clever design. I would be fine if the new design had similar trade-offs and similar options to buy the case with/without ODD support.

All that said, I am perfectly happy using my external bluray drive. I share it between three different computers, none of which have a built in ODD. I use it to play some Blurays and older DVD's for the kids and to install some older games I have on DVD. Most of the time, I can link the games I install to Steam/Origin/etc so I don't need to keep the disc in to play, but there are work arounds if that doesn't work. And not only was this drive cheaper than the internal ODD equivalent (slot load bluray are not cheap), but I only need one drive for my three systems. Also, I put it away when not in use, but the Asus external drives look pretty decent if you wanted to keep it connected.
 
How rural are we talking? Are you surfing the forums on dial-up!?.

Well, I live 45 minutes outside of the nation's capital amongst farms and forests. Internet access is via large wireless networks and coverage is spotty. Satellite service is even worse. The best service I can get is 5 Mbps down and 1 Mbps up, and that has a 85 GB limit for $65 per month plus $10 for the equipment fee. Sometimes it feels like "wireless dial-up", as my wife calls it.
 
The best service I can get is 5 Mbps down and 1 Mbps up, and that has a 85 GB limit for $65 per month plus $10 for the equipment fee

Ouch! My connection at work is only 1 Mbps up/down so I understand your pain somewhat. That said, I have a 150 Mbps connection at home...so my opinions on an ODD are obviously different than yours.
 
The problem I have with doors is that if they're not perfect, they're worse than no doo

I'm running out of ideas here...Remove the front I/O completely, supply a separate dongle that runs out the back of the case with the USB and headphone/microphone jacks? Upgradability is huge, just buy a new part. Have a nice weighted base so it stays where you put it...have it so you can remove the base and mount on or under your desk/monitor/etc with 2 sided tape?


Regarding the I/O cables, by "bottom corner" are you referring to the bottom corner of the case (when standing up) or the motherboard?

Based on your layout, I would want the cables pre-run to the top right corner in the horizontal position. 90° out from the I/O, along the front, then 90° towards the back of the case. Cables length isn't an issue, just want them out of the middle of the case, especially with all the PSU cables that are running in the same area. If not this, then can you make the cables more flexible so they can be routed/stored easier?
 
I've used an ODD less than 10 times since 2005. Games first became downloadable in the early 2000s, and movies shortly after. Once that happened it was goodbye space-wasting discs. Windows also became bootable from USB around that time. I don't understand why anyone has used a disc for anything since then, they are terrible.

But I get that I'm an exception. The W360 design is a VCR-like box where an ODD makes sense. The Necere design is a PC tower/flat case design with an emphasis on style and performance, which will almost exclusively live on enthusiasts' desks, so an ODD doesn't really make sense there.
 
As long as you have a USB port you don't need an internal ODD. I could fit 3 in my case if I wanted to and yet I have none. I will say you can find deals on games that are only if you get the disc instead of digital, that's the only reason I have an external ODD.
 
Hey necere, im about to buy the ncase m1, if I do that I wont buy this or any other case for a long while (years).
But if you say you will crowdfund this case some time soon I will pledge for it instead.
 
Necere any more news/renders? I need my fix...
No. I've stepped away from this for the moment. That's something I often do after creating a new concept, as it helps to come back to it after a while with a set of fresh eyes.

Hey necere, im about to buy the ncase m1, if I do that I wont buy this or any other case for a long while (years).
But if you say you will crowdfund this case some time soon I will pledge for it instead.
I wouldn't expect it anytime soon. Go ahead with whatever current plans you have.
 
Update:

Necere and I have agree to do separate projects. Necere will focus on the Rev 3 (thick case) and I will create a new case project under a separate brand (yet to be determined).

We have fundamentally different visions, so to satisfy us both will just end up with a compromised product. For me, a console PC / steam machine should be designed for horizontal placement on a TV cabinet (living room), and *still horizontal but VESA mounted on a desk. To try and make a design work in both horizontal and vertical orientation is compromising.

Why bother minimizing desktop foot print when you can VESA mount and take no desktop space at all. So to me, the ultimate SFF is a VESA mounted PC.

I will show the case in a different thread when I have more time. I will need to finish my renders before I make a post. You guys are easily swayed by fancy renders, so I need to up my game in that area :p.
 
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Update:

Necere and I have agree to do separate projects. Necere will focus on the Rev 3 (thick case) and I will create a new case project under a separate brand (yet to be determined).

We have fundamentally different visions, so to satisfy us both will just end up with a compromised product. For me, a console PC / steam machine should be designed for horizontal placement on a TV cabinet (living room), and *still horizontal but VESA mounted on a desk. To try and make a design work in both horizontal and vertical orientation is compromising.

Why bother minimizing desktop foot print when you can VESA mount and take no desktop space at all. So to me, the ultimate SFF is a VESA mounted PC.

I will show the case in a different thread when I have more time. I will need to finish my renders before I make a post. You guys are easily swayed by fancy renders, so I need to up my game in that area :p.

I had hoped that both designs could have been produced as new Ncase models.
 
I had hoped that both designs could have been produced as new Ncase models.

I been working with other indie makers on this forum on a new website so people can get NCASE, Dan Cases, NFC, Kimera Industries from one place. One roof while retaining our own brand will allow us to collaborate among ourselves freely.

NCASE is a collaboration btw myself and Necere, if all goes well, I might collaborate with NFC and Kimera too, so it's all good. If I collaborate with Dondan, I can call the case "DD" (Dan + Dan)...lol
 
I been working with other indie makers on this forum on a new website so people can get NCASE, Dan Cases, NFC, Kimera Industries from one place. One roof while retaining our own brand will allow us to collaborate among ourselves freely.

NCASE is a collaboration btw myself and Necere, if all goes well, I might collaborate with NFC and Kimera too, so it's all good. If I collaborate with Dondan, I can call the case "DD" (Dan + Dan)...lol

That sounds like a very cool idea. Hopefully we can get several models of "boutique" cases.
 
As long as you have a USB port you don't need an internal ODD. I could fit 3 in my case if I wanted to and yet I have none. I will say you can find deals on games that are only if you get the disc instead of digital, that's the only reason I have an external ODD.

I'm the guy my friends and family come to with their pc issues. I often find myself having to reinstall Windows for them, and a few of these machines refuse to reliably boot from usb. So I burn discs. With how unreliable I've found stored discs to be, I make a new one each time. Inefficient, I know, but it rules out a variable when diagnosing and has solved a fair number of problems since I started doing it. This is to say nothing of my tinkering with older machines. An external drive is wasted desk space, not to mention ugly and not as safe as internal. It's the reason I got an M1 over things like the dan a4. I get that I'm not of a popular opinion on this, but I personally need an optical drive. They have other uses not touched on yet here a well. Emulators spring to mind, being able to pop in a disc from my ps2 library is preferable to wasting hard drive space on the iso, and since something like this would be used as a living room entertainment center pc, that in particular is functionality I refuse to compromise.
 
I'm the guy my friends and family come to with their pc issues. I often find myself having to reinstall Windows for them, and a few of these machines refuse to reliably boot from usb.

Well, then you have an excuse to avoid them - "Sorry, I don't have an ODD anymore so I can't help you". That's actually the main reason I got rid of mine at work long ago, since a harebrained boss often asked me to burn him an OS disc since he'd lost his. Again and again. Nowadays he fixes it himself (using a usb thumbdrive or otherwise). :p
 
I think it'd be cool to have the option to install a 5.25" floopy drive in the graphics card section. Then I can install my copy of Stargoose from 1988, which integrated graphics is enough for. ;) And I can show off my floppy drive through the window.
 
I'm the guy my friends and family come to with their pc issues. I often find myself having to reinstall Windows for them, and a few of these machines refuse to reliably boot from usb. So I burn discs. With how unreliable I've found stored discs to be, I make a new one each time. Inefficient, I know, but it rules out a variable when diagnosing and has solved a fair number of problems since I started doing it. This is to say nothing of my tinkering with older machines. An external drive is wasted desk space, not to mention ugly and not as safe as internal. It's the reason I got an M1 over things like the dan a4. I get that I'm not of a popular opinion on this, but I personally need an optical drive. They have other uses not touched on yet here a well. Emulators spring to mind, being able to pop in a disc from my ps2 library is preferable to wasting hard drive space on the iso, and since something like this would be used as a living room entertainment center pc, that in particular is functionality I refuse to compromise.

I can understand since I've reinstalled Windows for friends prior, just a few times, that is already too many :p.

I'm responsible for things outside of design, so I have to find the energy to solve all of the problems of bringing the product to market, distribution and support.

ODD is a mental block for me and I find supportting it in 2017 demoralizing.

I just don't want to work on any case with ODD. In fact, I'm really tempted to just end the M1 WITH ODD too. It's mentally exhausting to support something so backwards.
 
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ODD is a mental block for me and I find supportting it in 2017 demoralizing.

I just don't want to work on any case with ODD. In fact, I'm really tempted to just end the M1 WITH ODD too. It's mentally exhausting to support something so backwards.

This is a stance I have trouble wrapping my head around. If it's an issue of design, where it simply won't fit (or would take more effort to figure out than could be justified), then it'd be understandable to exclude it. Regrettable, but unavoidable, in such a scenario. However, to want to exclude support for something on principle as you seem to describe just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand how backwards compatibility with an older or less popular technology without sacrifice wouldn't be something to be proud of, let alone demoralizing. But maybe that's just me.

I mean, it's not my project, obviously, so I don't ultimately have a say in it. I'm just throwing in my two cents.
 
This is a stance I have trouble wrapping my head around. If it's an issue of design, where it simply won't fit (or would take more effort to figure out than could be justified), then it'd be understandable to exclude it. Regrettable, but unavoidable, in such a scenario. However, to want to exclude support for something on principle as you seem to describe just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't understand how backwards compatibility with an older or less popular technology without sacrifice wouldn't be something to be proud of, let alone demoralizing. But maybe that's just me.

I mean, it's not my project, obviously, so I don't ultimately have a say in it. I'm just throwing in my two cents.

Yea, i forgot to mention the trade offs from my perspective.

With SFF cases, there are always trade offs no?

1) an ODD in the horizontal design interferes with the amount of space the GPU has for airflow. It's also another heat source inside the case.

2) without ODD, the Flex PSU can be on to the ground of the chassis, leaving room for 2x 2.5" SSDs above the Flex PSU, which also could makes cable mgmt better (ODD connector cable is big and bulky).

3) the ODD makes the Flex PSU bracket more complex, the ODD brackets are also very small and therefore more costly.

Typicall SFF trade-offs in addition to my personal preference, leads me to say no to ODD.
 
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Update:

Necere and I have agree to do separate projects. Necere will focus on the Rev 3 (thick case) and I will create a new case project under a separate brand (yet to be determined).

We have fundamentally different visions, so to satisfy us both will just end up with a compromised product. For me, a console PC / steam machine should be designed for horizontal placement on a TV cabinet (living room), and *still horizontal but VESA mounted on a desk. To try and make a design work in both horizontal and vertical orientation is compromising.

Why bother minimizing desktop foot print when you can VESA mount and take no desktop space at all. So to me, the ultimate SFF is a VESA mounted PC.

I will show the case in a different thread when I have more time. I will need to finish my renders before I make a post. You guys are easily swayed by fancy renders, so I need to up my game in that area :p.
I hope there is no bad blood between you to as you do beautiful work together, however I am very happy to hear that you will not be compromising your vision. I think the original idea of a steam style case in this form factor is one many people are drawn too and interested in. Good luck and hurry up and take my money
 
They argue a bunch and are usually fine. I think it's best for them to let each other get their own passion project out, and then get back together to talk about the next step. I'm excited to see how it works.
 
I think that the lack of slim blu-ray drives out there these days, and the absence of anyone making slim slot loading ones these days, points to skipping the ODD capability.
 
I hate to say it, but the mark up on slot loading blu-ray drives has gotten rediculous. The silverstone one I had boight for my Ncase is very nearly out of stock everywhere. I don't think you could really be faulted for not supporting optical media due to the general lack of good slim odd options. If I was buying again today, I'd simply get an external drive for price reasons.
 
Yea, i forgot to mention the trade offs from my perspective.

With SFF cases, there are always trade offs no?

1) an ODD in the horizontal design interferes with the amount of space the GPU has for airflow. It's also another heat source inside the case.

2) without ODD, the Flex PSU can be on to the ground of the chassis, leaving room for 2x 2.5" SSDs above the Flex PSU, which also could makes cable mgmt better (ODD connector cable is big and bulky).

3) the ODD makes the Flex PSU bracket more complex, the ODD brackets are also very small and therefore more costly.

Typicall SFF trade-offs in addition to my personal preference, leads me to say no to ODD.

That reasoning makes perfect sense for this case, thanks for that clarification. I still find your desire to discontinue support for it in the M1 strange, though.

PCpartpicker lists one Panasonic slim slot-load drive for a not too terrible price of $119, but in general the slot loaders seem to going extinct. That's why I designed this version for regular, non-slot loading slim drives, as there's still a few of those available.
I suspect they're harder to find as fewer and fewer laptops include optical drives, which sucks for the SFF fans that use them.
 
I still find your desire to discontinue support for it in the M1 strange, though.

The ODD slot on the M1 panel looks out of place. So for a better look.

Also, from a logistic perspective, Silver and Black NO ODD creates 2 additional SKU, more complexity.
 
I hope there is no bad blood between you to as you do beautiful work together, however I am very happy to hear that you will not be compromising your vision. I think the original idea of a steam style case in this form factor is one many people are drawn too and interested in. Good luck and hurry up and take my money

They argue a bunch and are usually fine. I think it's best for them to let each other get their own passion project out, and then get back together to talk about the next step. I'm excited to see how it works.

It's fine, we've been arguing since the beginning (M1 days). It's just part of our process, I know that kind of workflow is not for everyone, but I think it works for us.

Our arguments usually intensify as we get closer to finalizing designs - so at least you know we care about the details that goes into each iteration.

At the end of day, the arguments are not personal, it's about the product, so it's all for the sake of making a better product.
 
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The ODD slot on the M1 panel looks out of place. So for a better look.

Also, from a logistic perspective, Silver and Black NO ODD creates 2 additional SKU, more complexity.
But given that the parts already exist for the M1, why would you remove this feature? It just seems perverse. If you were starting from scratch again then I could see the sense in what you're saying, but to remove a feature from an existing product is just strange.

I mean, I don't use an ODD with my M1 but I have a top panel with ODD cut-out. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
 
But given that the parts already exist for the M1, why would you remove this feature? It just seems perverse. If you were starting from scratch again then I could see the sense in what you're saying, but to remove a feature from an existing product is just strange.

I mean, I don't use an ODD with my M1 but I have a top panel with ODD cut-out. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
As he writes:
1: for better look
2: easier logistics,

Please, read.
 
I find it remarkable that the Ncase M1 has and ODD slot, not because discs are becoming obsolete, rather I'm amazed that I can fit an ODD along with 2 full size 140mm fans, 2 -120mm fans, a full size graphics, 2 SSDs, and the list goes on. To fit all that in a case this size is amazing. I don't use my ODD slot much, but when I do, I'm glad I don't have to pull out an external drive. What other indie SFF case has a slim ODD? I don't know of one other than Ncase M1.

Now, I'm wanting to put my slim ODD into this new HTPC/Steambox/console type case. First of all because I don't have a DVD/Blu-ray player currently, and second because it would fit in my TV console, and lastly because my wife and I could play games together. We only have 1 PC at the moment. I would like for all of my PCs to be of the Ncase variety.
 
As he writes:
1: for better look
2: easier logistics,

Please, read.

I respectfully disagree.

I use my optical drives all the time on both of my M1 computers. In fact, I wouldn't have bought one if it wasn't ODD capable. The clean, symmetric slot fits perfectly with the M1's minimalist appearance.
 
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