Stubborn price points from Intel, NVIDIA and AMD

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stateofjermaine

[H]ard|Gawd
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Jul 22, 2009
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I guess it's hardly news around here that NVIDIA's GTX 285 prices are still unchanged, and will likely remain unchanged for some time. Ridiculous, given the can of so-and-so that the 5850 has opened up on it? Yes. But this minor injustice got me thinking about another big performer whose time is up: the Phenom II X4 965. It is almost like AMD's processor-equivalent to the GTX 285. Both parts are priced about $100 above their superior counterparts, and seem destined to remain so for some time. Of course Intel has its Q9650, and its radically priced EE parts, also. And I dunno, it just got me thinking.

Is this some kind of stalemate? Are NVIDIA, Intel and AMD just trying to decide who has the best marketing team or something? All of these parts seem to still be selling, for whatever reason, so I guess there is little incentive for prices to drop. But is there any other explanation for this? Are people in enthusiast circles the only ones that know?

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.
 
Well if the part is already sold and out of production then its up to the resellers and retailers to sell them. If the reseller already paid the premium price for them they aren't going to align them to their performance value and eat the loss without even trying to make a profit. I don't know if Intel is still pumping out Q9650's or if there is enough in the pipeline to meet demand. Whether it is in production or not the last high end part of a platform will command a premium price. This is a for profit business after all and it would only make them happy if you saw upgrading to an i7 as better value. For example Opteron 165 w/a good stepping or 185's. K6-3 450Mhz's with 3DNOW! Extreme Edition P4's.

For Nvidia, I don't think it really matters for them right now if their price is too high. They don't have a new product out yet, so its not like they need to clear out inventories. I don't think they expect their cards to be selling like hot cakes anyway.
 
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JohnleMVP said:
Well if the part is already sold and out of production then its up to the resellers and retailers to sell them. If the reseller already paid the premium price for them they aren't going to align them to their performance value and eat the loss without even trying to make a profit. I don't know if Intel is still pumping out Q9650's or if there is enough in the pipeline to meet demand. Whether it is in production or not the last high end part of a platform will command a premium price.
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I do see your point. And while it makes sense for resellers to be protecting their investment funds, to me it doesn't make any sense for buyers to be enabling this behavior. As far as I can tell, these parts have been rendered obsolete in one fell swoop by new tech. Why are buyers still giving these companies an easy out?

This is a for profit business after all and it would only make them happy if you saw upgrading to an i7 as better value.
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Another interesting point, but what about i5? Again, the problem with these odd-man-out parts is not that their price/performance is a little out of kilter. It is completely smashed into crumbs. Lynnfield systems can be had for cheaper than old Q9650 setups, and provide far superior performance in most cases.

For Nvidia, I don't think it really matters for them right now if their price is too high. They don't have a new product out yet, so its not like they need to clear out inventories. I don't think they expect their cards to be selling like hot cakes anyway.
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Perhaps not, but should they not have any response to the ATI release? Certainly coming late to the table is never ideal, but they seem to be trying to ignore ATI's new cards and the mild firestorm they have created. A GTX 285 just looks silly on the shelf next to a 5870 for the same price. Maybe they're just hoping no one else has gotten the memo?
 
I though the prices of Nvidia's cards would follow suit, but hey there are worse deals out there one could fall for link
 
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kuyaglen said:
I though the prices of Nvidia's cards would follow suit, but hey there are worse deals out there one could fall for link
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Heh, maybe it's overclocked. :p

Edit: I think your best bet is to go for the GPU/CPU bundle.
 
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TheQuestian said:
I do see your point. And while it makes sense for resellers to be protecting their investment funds, to me it doesn't make any sense for buyers to be enabling this behavior. As far as I can tell, these parts have been rendered obsolete in one fell swoop by new tech. Why are buyers still giving these companies an easy out?
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You're right to ask this of course, but keep in mind retailers don't have arrows pointing to the best value card, and buyers act as irrational agents.

A significant enough amount off consumers don't do enough research to realize they are getting poor value. This cards will drop in price literally when newegg, microcenter et all aren't able to sell them. It's fairly easy to drop the price due to lack of demand when they need to, so they will wait until it is necessary.
 
kaddar said:
You're right to ask this of course, but keep in mind retailers don't have arrows pointing to the best value card, and buyers act as irrational agents.

A significant enough amount off consumers don't do enough research to realize they are getting poor value. This cards will drop in price literally when newegg, microcenter et all aren't able to sell them. It's fairly easy to drop the price due to lack of demand when they need to, so they will wait until it is necessary.
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Yeah, I suspected this, but I didn't want to make any assumptions. It seems like a lot of sellers are just banking on the fact that some people equate high prices with top performance. I have to wonder if sales staffs are still encouraged to recommend these older parts, just to get rid of them.

Does anyone think there are situations where these parts are still a good option?
 
TheQuestian said:
Does anyone think there are situations where these parts are still a good option?
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Well if we accept NVidia's assumption that dx11 won't drive hardware sales (lol), maybe some people are willing to spend at least 60 bucks more than similar performance in the 5850 to get the 285 with physx? Not saying its a great idea but I could see it happening.
 
FranklyShankly said:
Well if we accept NVidia's assumption that dx11 won't drive hardware sales (lol), maybe some people are willing to spend at least 60 bucks more than similar performance in the 5850 to get the 285 with physx? Not saying its a great idea but I could see it happening.
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You know, to be honest, I wonder which will end up having greater impact this generation.
 
Is it dishonest to continue selling these parts at these prices? How is the average consumer to know they are paying more and getting less?
 
TheQuestian said:
Is it dishonest to continue selling these parts at these prices? How is the average consumer to know they are paying more and getting less?
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Your average consumer doesn't know jack about the internal components of computers ... for all they know, there could still be "little men" inside those radios :p It's almost like magic for most ppl; functional ignorance. Most folks are not nearly as [H]ard as us, so the best we can do is to give our friends/family a hand when they need computer purchasing advice.
 
tungt88 said:
Your average consumer doesn't know jack about the internal components of computers ... for all they know, there could still be "little men" inside those radios :p It's almost like magic for most ppl; functional ignorance. Most folks are not nearly as [H]ard as us, so the best we can do is to give our friends/family a hand when they need computer purchasing advice.
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Yeah, it's a shame, huh? I don't know much, but I didn't know anything until I joined this forum. And there's no system in place to help those people who don't know what they are paying for.
 
TheQuestian said:
Perhaps not, but should they not have any response to the ATI release? Certainly coming late to the table is never ideal, but they seem to be trying to ignore ATI's new cards and the mild firestorm they have created. A GTX 285 just looks silly on the shelf next to a 5870 for the same price. Maybe they're just hoping no one else has gotten the memo?
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Plenty of people will continue to buy nvidia's overpriced hardware unknowingly (brand recognition). Others will buy it as long as it has an nvidia logo on it. How many years did AMD have the performance crown, AND have the cheaper product? 4 years? Considering how long they were at the top and had total performance dominance from top to bottom, it's amazing how little progress they made in terms of market share against Intel. Nvidia could probably sell the 285 at ~$325-350 for months and still maintain solid sales.
 
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The cheapest i5 costs as much as an E8500. That's just wrong. I need a slight CPU upgrade (have an E4300 now, OC-ed), but it seems that it's almost better to get rid of my current setup and add a bit of money to get a brand new i5 system...
 
i don't get why people are saying nvidia won't drop the price of the 285. the 5850 has only actually been available for 8 days, and it's been out of stock for pretty much all of them. price cuts don't happen instantly...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...PA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=5850&x=0&y=0

newegg only has the sapphire 5850 in stock, and it wasn't there when i checked yesterday night. you pretty much can't buy a 5850 right now. why would nvidia cut prices?
 
stainremover said:
i don't get why people are saying nvidia won't drop the price of the 285. the 5850 has only actually been available for 8 days, and it's been out of stock for pretty much all of them. price cuts don't happen instantly...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...PA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=5850&x=0&y=0

newegg only has the sapphire 5850 in stock, and it wasn't there when i checked yesterday night. you pretty much can't buy a 5850 right now. why would nvidia cut prices?
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Well, I certainly hope you're right. But recent trends have not been encouraging. There are plenty of existing prices that make no sense (i.e. all of those listed in the OP). Why should we believe this will be any different?

P.S. Why the link?
 
TheQuestian said:
I do see your point. And while it makes sense for resellers to be protecting their investment funds, to me it doesn't make any sense for buyers to be enabling this behavior. As far as I can tell, these parts have been rendered obsolete in one fell swoop by new tech. Why are buyers still giving these companies an easy out?


Another interesting point, but what about i5? Again, the problem with these odd-man-out parts is not that their price/performance is a little out of kilter. It is completely smashed into crumbs. Lynnfield systems can be had for cheaper than old Q9650 setups, and provide far superior performance in most cases.


Perhaps not, but should they not have any response to the ATI release? Certainly coming late to the table is never ideal, but they seem to be trying to ignore ATI's new cards and the mild firestorm they have created. A GTX 285 just looks silly on the shelf next to a 5870 for the same price. Maybe they're just hoping no one else has gotten the memo?
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Q9550 is usually not being bought as part of a complete build; the CPUs are likely being bought as upgrades for an existing system (existing motherboard is quad-core capable). Also, there are still those for whom even i5 is overkill.

Lastly, there are those that will not buy an Intel CPU under any circumstances; same applies to AMD GPUs. (My current P5N-EM is the only nForce-based motherboard I have ever bought.)

Also, as bad as the GTX285 (also GTX260 and even GTX275, let alone GTX295) are being sledged by HD5850 and HD5870, think about AMD's own HD48xx (down to the HD4830); if anything, they are in even poorer position. Pretty much the *only* advantage they have is those deep discounts (however, they can only discount so much before the loss becomes unsustainable); worse, HD58xx is easier on the electric bill than even HD4850, let alone HD4870 or HD4890 (so any overage on the front will be made up on the back end in terms of savings on power costs)
 
PGHammer said:
Q9550 is usually not being bought as part of a complete build; the CPUs are likely being bought as upgrades for an existing system (existing motherboard is quad-core capable). Also, there are still those for whom even i5 is overkill.
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Well, sure. But the principle is the same. Why spend more and get less? Even if it is overkill. And I am taking it you meant to type "Q9650", as the Q9550 is not grossly overpriced, in my opinion. I see your point regarding upgrades, although I hope you will agree that Intel takes advantage of the difference in sockets to engage in a little bit of gouging.

Lastly, there are those that will not buy an Intel CPU under any circumstances; same applies to AMD GPUs. (My current P5N-EM is the only nForce-based motherboard I have ever bought.)
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I hope you don't consider this a legitimate excuse for either company's overpriced hardware. :confused:


Also, as bad as the GTX285 (also GTX260 and even GTX275, let alone GTX295) are being sledged by HD5850 and HD5870, think about AMD's own HD48xx (down to the HD4830); if anything, they are in even poorer position.
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This should be the case, shouldn't it? Wasn't this the plan? By all indications, the 4800 series will be rendered obsolete by 5800, and to me this makes perfect sense. I could be wrong, but I understood the 4800's to be on their way out.

Pretty much the *only* advantage they have is those deep discounts (however, they can only discount so much before the loss becomes unsustainable); worse, HD58xx is easier on the electric bill than even HD4850, let alone HD4870 or HD4890 (so any overage on the front will be made up on the back end in terms of savings on power costs)
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Agreed. The 5800's are a better value than the 4800's. I would think users would be very up in arms if it were not so.
 
Supply chains guys, supply chains.

Nvidia can reduce the price on the G200 series all they want, but the cards currently on the market have to be sold first. Resellers are NOT going to sell their investment for less than what they paid for unless for extreme reasons. If you guys have ever worked in the computer industry, you should know that despite better products always being released, there is still *some* demand for older products. Some people are simply reluctant to fully upgrade. Some people are glued to specific brands. And of course, you have those unfortunate folk who don't do their homework and purchase the box with the prettiest picture on the front.

Fact is, albeit much smaller than it used to, there is still a demand for the G200 series cards, and companies like Newegg and Zipzoomfly who resell these cards aren't going to drop their price, because they know they will sell [eventually]. On top of that, these cards still *ARE* Nvidia's top of the line products. Fermi hasn't been released yet, and who knows when it will be.

And do you really think the Radeon 5000 series should be that expensive? Nevermind the fact that they're the top of the line cards on the market, AMD isn't going to price the Radeon 5000 series to compete against the Radeon 4000 series price points. This is *PRECISELY* why the 5700 series haven't been released yet, because all those Radeon 4870's and 4890's have to be sold off before the 5700's can fill in those price points.
 
TheQuestian said:
Well, sure. But the principle is the same. Why spend more and get less? Even if it is overkill. And I am taking it you meant to type "Q9650", as the Q9550 is not grossly overpriced, in my opinion. I see your point regarding upgrades, although I hope you will agree that Intel takes advantage of the difference in sockets to engage in a little bit of gouging.
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No; I specifically meant Q9550 (because the Q9650 *is* overpriced, and it was overpriced compared to Q9550 when it launched). MicroCenter, for example, doesn't stock any.

TheQuestian said:
I hope you don't consider this a legitimate excuse for either company's overpriced hardware. :confused:
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Absolutely not, which is why I refuse to buy any nV GTX or GTS card (and crossed HD48xx off the upgrade strategy, despite the price cuts).





TheQuestian said:
This should be the case, shouldn't it? Wasn't this the plan? By all indications, the 4800 series will be rendered obsolete by 5800, and to me this makes perfect sense. I could be wrong, but I understood the 4800's to be on their way out.


Agreed. The 5800's are a better value than the 4800's. I would think users would be very up in arms if it were not so.
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However, it puts those that still have room to upgrade CPU and GPU (but have no reason to rush to i5 *or* i7) in a very interesting position (which is why I'm looking at Q9550/HD5850). My most demanding game that I play regularly (graphics-wise) is NFS: Shift (or Race Driver GRiD, and even Q9550 and HD5850 likely won't change that (the one shooter I play *at all* is UT 3), and the only reason I'm looking at a quad-core at all has to do with transcoding primarily (and running VMs secondarily); and being as I can upgrade to the combo without buying a new motherboard or a RAM swap, it behooves me to save where I can, and the best bang-for-buck quad-core for LGA775 is Q9550 (just as the best bang-for-buck GPU today is HD5850).
 
What happens when the i5 is substantially cheaper than the Q9550 (which it is, at least where I live)? For example, I can get the Q9550 *or* sell my current MBO+CPU and buy an i5+MBO for the same amount of money I'd pay for a Q9550. I could also sell my current RAM and add a little extra to get DDR-3.

I think that's the point of this thread: "old" mainstream hardware doesn't lose value properly. Sometimes you're better off getting the latest and the newest.
 
Ranari said:
Supply chains guys, supply chains.

Nvidia can reduce the price on the G200 series all they want, but the cards currently on the market have to be sold first. Resellers are NOT going to sell their investment for less than what they paid for unless for extreme reasons.
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Good point. I guess these old prices are hanging around because they're not selling out. Resellers still have their old overpriced stock, and they will take a big loss if they drop the price. Makes sense.

But as I have said, this is an argument from the position of a reseller. All of this still makes no sense for buyers. I understand that they sell at these prices because there is a demand. But the question is, "Why is there still a demand?"
 
stainremover said:
i don't get why people are saying nvidia won't drop the price of the 285. the 5850 has only actually been available for 8 days, and it's been out of stock for pretty much all of them. price cuts don't happen instantly...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...PA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=5850&x=0&y=0

newegg only has the sapphire 5850 in stock, and it wasn't there when i checked yesterday night. you pretty much can't buy a 5850 right now. why would nvidia cut prices?
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I think we'll see retailers drop prices for the holidays as well as gradual price cuts as the 5800 becomes more available. The justifications some of you have been mentioning though sound really crazy. If I couldn't find a 5850 I wouldn't settle for a 275. They're not out of stock some much that its impossible to get, I'd just wait the next day.

newegg only has the sapphire 5850 in stock, and it wasn't there when i checked yesterday night. you pretty much can't buy a 5850 right now. why would nvidia cut prices?[
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I seriously don't see someone saying man, I couldn't get the 5850..I'll get the 275 instead. That is, what you're saying right?
 
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Mangudai said:
I seriously don't see someone saying man, I couldn't get the 5850..I'll get the 275 instead.
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Agreed. I'm not in a position to buy, yet, but I have spotted various 5850's and 5870's here and there for a few days at a time. A serious buyer should find one within a week.
 
PGHammer said:
No; I specifically meant Q9550 (because the Q9650 *is* overpriced, and it was overpriced compared to Q9550 when it launched). MicroCenter, for example, doesn't stock any.
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Okay. Well, I have no problem with the Q9550. I think it is priced fairly.

. . . and being as I can upgrade to the combo without buying a new motherboard or a RAM swap, it behooves me to save where I can, and the best bang-for-buck quad-core for LGA775 is Q9550 (just as the best bang-for-buck GPU today is HD5850).
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Sure, great. I am not suggesting that all LGA 775 processors be discontinued. Nor am I suggesting that DX10 cards be piled and burned. I am only suggesting that buyers still putting money into their older systems should be able to do so cheaply. For example, a build from scratch involving a Q9650 and two GTX 285's in SLI will run you about:

Q9650 ($320) + GTX 285's SLI ($700) = $1020

This is just an example of course. Similarly:

Intel Core i5 ($200) + CF 5850's ($520) = $720

This is the kind of thing I am talking about.
 
TheQuestian said:
I guess it's a convenient loophole that all of these parts are the "fastest" of their kind.
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Business 101: All products that meet standards can be considered 'the best.' To say a product is 'better' though requires actual scientific proof that the product is better than its competitors (aka better than 'the best.')
 
Matija said:
What happens when the i5 is substantially cheaper than the Q9550 (which it is, at least where I live)? For example, I can get the Q9550 *or* sell my current MBO+CPU and buy an i5+MBO for the same amount of money I'd pay for a Q9550. I could also sell my current RAM and add a little extra to get DDR-3.

I think that's the point of this thread: "old" mainstream hardware doesn't lose value properly. Sometimes you're better off getting the latest and the newest.
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QFT.
 
LAiN_OfTheWired said:
Business 101: All products that meet standards can be considered 'the best.' To say a product is 'better' though requires actual scientific proof that the product is better than its competitors (aka better than 'the best.')
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That wasn't supposed to be a reasonable rationale, right?
 
But as I have said, this is an argument from the position of a reseller. All of this still makes no sense for buyers. I understand that they sell at these prices because there is a demand. But the question is, "Why is there still a demand?"
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You can answer that question right here.
 
TheQuestian said:
Okay. Well, I have no problem with the Q9550. I think it is priced fairly.


Sure, great. I am not suggesting that all LGA 775 processors be discontinued. Nor am I suggesting that DX10 cards be piled and burned. I am only suggesting that buyers still putting money into their older systems should be able to do so cheaply. For example, a build from scratch involving a Q9650 and two GTX 285's in SLI will run you about:

Q9650 ($320) + GTX 285's SLI ($700) = $1020

This is just an example of course. Similarly:

Intel Core i5 ($200) + CF 5850's ($520) = $720

This is the kind of thing I am talking about.
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I don't recommend LGA775 *at all* as a from-scratch build, despite cheap dual-core CPUs such as Celeron DC (and even the E3200, which is Celeron DC with VT) because LGA1156 (and i5) makes more sense.

And part of the reason that GTX2xx (not just 260 and 275) aren't seeing deeper price cuts (and why HD48xx also aren't seeing any real price cuts) is that pretty much all the HD58xx action has been in e-tail/online (outside of Fry's, has any US retailer decided to even stock any HD58xx?), so there's a disincentive from two fronts as far as price cuts go (no real reason to, and a lack of HD5850 stock means that you can sell what you have).

Until HD5850 in particular increases in inventory (which will lead to decreases in price there) why should the waxed competition drop any more?
 
PGHammer said:
I don't recommend LGA775 *at all* as a from-scratch build, despite cheap dual-core CPUs such as Celeron DC (and even the E3200, which is Celeron DC with VT) because LGA1156 (and i5) makes more sense.

And part of the reason that GTX2xx (not just 260 and 275) aren't seeing deeper price cuts (and why HD48xx also aren't seeing any real price cuts) is that pretty much all the HD58xx action has been in e-tail/online (outside of Fry's, has any US retailer decided to even stock any HD58xx?), so there's a disincentive from two fronts as far as price cuts go (no real reason to, and a lack of HD5850 stock means that you can sell what you have).

Until HD5850 in particular increases in inventory (which will lead to decreases in price there) why should the waxed competition drop any more?
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Inventory loses its value, and a company can make more money if they are able to ge a faster turnover sure sitting on a pile of GTX 285 makes sense in that you don't want to take a hit, but if you don't unload them fast enough you will find yourself sitting on a bunch of worthless crap 4-5 months down the road. To my guess is that the retailers are waiting on the manufacturer rebates and if that never happens and the retailers may be the ones taking the loss.
 
tungt88 said:
Your average consumer doesn't know jack about the internal components of computers ... for all they know, there could still be "little men" inside those radios :p It's almost like magic for most ppl; functional ignorance. Most folks are not nearly as [H]ard as us, so the best we can do is to give our friends/family a hand when they need computer purchasing advice.
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this is the best statement I have read, it is so true working retail. you have to work retail to know how ignorant a consumer is and how blinded they are, trust me there are people out there I see everyday they just buy nvidia for their name, "Nvidia is the best, Its all about geforce" though a smart consumer who has done his/her research would always get the best for their money. even if I tell a customer hey spend another 50 bucks and get the hd 5870, they would be like oh nobody makes better cards than nvidia. I would say most people can be persued to get whats best for their money, but some people just think that I am sales guy and I am the last one they should listen to, it happens and I am used to it. I would say 30% of the customers buy nvidia regardless, why would a company lower their prices if they don't have to, trust me no one is going to feel sorry for us consumers, it will never happen, and there will always be people who will buy one brand over the other just because they can.
 
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