Silverstone SG14(~7.4lt) Proposal

[gintama7888]

Firstly, this is not an official Silverstone case, it's just my proposal for new smallest gaming ITX case suited for 2015/2016.
I came up with this idea cos I'm very frustrated by the super long GPU support on most small ITX gaming cases, because I much prefer smaller case with shorter GPU support.
- long GPU support = larger case, total waste of space for people that doesn't use the long GPU.
- I think people would be willing to use shorter GPU(GTX970/960 Mini etc) for one of the smallest ITX gaming cases.
- Short and powerful GPU like R9 Nano will be available very soon, and NVidia's replacement for GTX970 Mini should be faster than R9 Nano.
- R9 Fury X should fit inside this case.
- I only called this case Silverstone SG14 because the design is very similar to Silverstone SG13/SG05.

If Silverstone decide to make similar case then it will be one of the smallest gaming ITX cases, only smaller gaming ITX case I know would be Lian Li Dan A4(not out yet, http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1799326) but this is case much simpler design(won't require riser card etc) so it'll much easier/cheaper to produce.

Silverstone SG14 = 150 x 222 x 222, 7.39lt (213mm GPU, 56mm heatsink, SFX PSU)
Lian Li(?) Dan A4 = 114 x 200 x 318, 7.25lt (267mm GPU, 48mm heatsink, SFX-L PSU)
Silverstone SG05 = 222 x 176 x 276, 10.78lt (254mm GPU, 82mm heatsink, SFX PSU)
Silverstone SG13 = 222 x 181 x 285, 11.45lt (267mm GPU, 61mm heatsink, ATX PSU)
Lian Li PC-TU100 = 170 x 277 x 252, 11.87lt (195mm GPU, 60mm heatsink, SFX-L PSU)

As I said, it's a simple design. Basically make the SG13 case smaller by reducing the depth(~54mm) and the height(~31mm), and then turn the case to its side once to make the case tower shape(for better looks and smaller foot print).

(obviously logo/usb ports will be at the bottom)

As posted above but the overall dimension of the case would be ~150 x 222 x 222 mm, ~7.39lt.
Can support ~213mm(8.4") length GPU. R9 Fury X, R9 Nano, GTX970 Mini, etc.
Can support ~56mm tall heatsink, Noctua NH-L9i, Thermalright AXP-200, Scythe Big Shuriken 2 Rev B, etc.
Can support Corsair Hydro H55/H60/H75 but then you won't be able to use R9 Fury X, and it maybe also reduce the maximum supported GPU length. (but you should be able to still use GTX970 Mini and R9 Nano will be fine)

Advantage over SG13/SG05
- ~55%/46% smaller size/volume compared to SG13/SG05, making it one of the smallest ITX gaming case available in the market.
- ~90%/84% smaller foot print compared to SG13/SG05

Disadvantage over SG13/SG05
- reduced GPU length, 8.4" vs 10.5"/10" on SG13/SG05
- reduced CPU heatsink height, 56mm vs 61mm/82mm SG13(ATX PSU)/SG05
- SFX PSU only

Advantage over Dan A4
- much cheaper
- support slightly taller CPU heatsink, 56mm vs 48mm
- support AIO cooler

Disadvantage over Dan A4
- slightly larger, 7.39lt vs 7.25lt
- reduced GPU length, 8.4" vs 10.5"

p.s. Dear Silverstone, please send me a free sample through local Silverstone distributor if you decide to make similar case, thank you.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1566251/silverstone-sg14-7-4lt-proposal

 

[iFreilicht]

Why not get an SG13 and mod it to fit your bill?

 

[Necere]

So as a starting point for examining your proposed specs, let's look at GPU height requirements. This is how much internal space you can expect to require for a reference card, on the left, and an ASUS "ITX" card (10mm taller than reference) on the right, including the PCI bracket and PCIe power connectors+enough room for the cables to bend:


(Click for larger size)

So at minimum, you're looking at ~150mm for a reference-height card, or ~160mm for anything slightly over reference such as ASUS's short cards. I expect you'd want to support the latter, due to the length restriction.


Regarding the Fury X, as a reminder AMD is only allowing the card to come with their custom AIO attached:



The card is 194mm long, while the radiator+fan is 65mm thick. Right away we can see that your proposed length of 222mm is insufficient for the radiator to sit in front of the motherboard (170mm). A more realistic depth is ~250mm, though this could grow depending on things like how thick of front bezel the case would have and support for a front dust filter. We also have to leave enough room to actually be able to install things in the case.

This is what I would consider about the minimum viable size for Fury X support:



That's a stand-in radiator - correct for thickness, but not other dimensions. Note the real Fury X rad has a flat plenum at both ends, and there's little space to bend the tubing and run it up to the rad. The PCIe power cables will be vying for space at the front/side of the card, as well. It may be doable, but it doesn't look easy to me.


All told, if you want Fury X support, it's likely the case would need to be in the 9L range. I'm not saying that's not worth it, but at the same time, the SG05 is already only 10.8L.

 

[Zap]

Basically make the SG13 case smaller by reducing the depth(~54mm) and the height(~31mm), and then turn the case to its side once to make the case tower shape(for better looks and smaller foot print).

Turning the existing case on its side is IMO your best idea. With almost zero changes other than re-orienting the feet and the branding, this case can magically have a smaller footprint. No optical drive helps visually in this respect, even though slim ODDs don't care about orientation.

 

[gintama7888]

Thanks for those pic Necere. You are right about the dimensions, the radiator on Hydro H55/H60/H75 is also 152mm so the height on the case have to be ~160-165mm.(and for Asus GTX Mini card too like you mentioned).

Increased the overall dimension of the case a bit to support R9 Fury X, Asus GTX Mini, Corsiar Hydro coolers.

Silverstone SG14 = 150 x 222 x 222, 7.39lt (213mm GPU, 56mm heatsink, SFX PSU, original dimension)
Silverstone SG14 = 162 x 222 x 245, 8.81lt (227mm GPU, 68mm heatsink, SFX PSU, new dimension)
Lian Li(?) Dan A4 = 114 x 200 x 318, 7.25lt (267mm GPU, 48mm heatsink, SFX-L PSU)
Silverstone SG05 = 222 x 176 x 276, 10.78lt (254mm GPU, 82mm heatsink, SFX PSU)
Silverstone SG13 = 222 x 181 x 285, 11.45lt (267mm GPU, 61mm heatsink, ATX PSU)
Lian Li PC-TU100 = 170 x 277 x 252, 11.87lt (195mm GPU, 60mm heatsink, SFX-L PSU)

Can support ~227mm(8.9") length GPU. R9 Fury X, R9 Nano, GTX970 Mini, etc.
Can support ~68mm tall heatsink. Noctua NH-L9x65, NH-L9i, Thermalright AXP-200, Scythe Big Shuriken 2 Rev B, etc.
Can support Corsair Hydro H55/H60/H75 but then you won't be able to use R9 Fury X, and it maybe also reduce the maximum supported GPU length. (but you should be able to still use GTX970 Mini and R9 Nano will be fine)

Advantage over SG13/SG05
- ~29%/22% smaller size/volume compared to SG13/SG05, making it one of the smallest ITX gaming case available in the market.
- ~58%/54% smaller foot print compared to SG13/SG05

Disadvantage over SG13/SG05
- reduced GPU length, 8.9" vs 10.5"/10" SG13/SG05
- reduced CPU heatsink height, 68mm vs 61mm/82mm SG13(ATX PSU)/SG05
- SFX PSU only

Advantage over Dan A4
- much cheaper
- support taller CPU heatsink, 69mm vs 48mm
- support AIO cooler

Disadvantage over Dan A4
- slightly larger, 8.81lt vs 7.25lt
- reduced GPU length, 8.9" vs 10.5"

 

[sky2]

Hi +1 for the idea, it should have enough clearance between the motherboard and PSU (84mm according to Corsair but could go with approx 70mm if you don't stack it up high like they do) to acommodate the soon to be released Corsair H5SF cpu liquid cooling.
That way, combined with a Fury X, you could have a 100% liquid cooled itx PC.

 

[iFreilicht]

Or you could just use a regular AIO. I don't think you can move this one much lower in a production case as the motherboard I/O shield will add another 6mm or so, and you need a bit of clearance for mounting holes. Effectively, the cooler could sit a few mm lower, but not by much.

 

[medeyer]

1. For a case that small, AIO collers are just too impractical. You're better off using an air cooler like the nt06-pro or nh-l12.

2. Where are your drive bays going to go? M.2 is not an answer.

3. Open air GPUs like the Asus minis would be better suited at the top of the case.

 

[killerfromsky]

1. For a case that small, AIO collers are just too impractical. You're better off using an air cooler like the nt06-pro or nh-l12.

2. Where are your drive bays going to go? M.2 is not an answer.

3. Open air GPUs like the Asus minis would be better suited at the top of the case.

1. Or cryorig c1/c7, or noctua l9i
2. Whats wrong with m2? They also have slower and cheaper drives available?
3. What does that matter? Imo bottom you can vent more ez then top (looks/practicality)

Anyway this is just a jonsbo v3+ with a fan mount. And no atx support. I do think adding atx support is worth it. You can still use atx-sfx adapter to maintain decent cpu cooler space if you want.

 

[iFreilicht]

1. Or cryorig c1/c7, or noctua l9i
2. Whats wrong with m2? They also have slower and cheaper drives available?
3. What does that matter? Imo bottom you can vent more ez then top (looks/practicality)

Anyway this is just a jonsbo v3+ with a fan mount. And no atx support. I do think adding atx support is worth it. You can still use atx-sfx adapter to maintain decent cpu cooler space if you want.

2. At least one 2.5" drive should be mountable somewhere for more/cheaper storage
3. At the top the temperatures can be way better without using feet.

The V3+ is three liters larger, though. At that point you might just go for the SG13 anyway.

 

[medeyer]

1. Or cryorig c1/c7, or noctua l9i
2. Whats wrong with m2? They also have slower and cheaper drives available?
3. What does that matter? Imo bottom you can vent more ez then top (looks/practicality)

Anyway this is just a jonsbo v3+ with a fan mount. And no atx support. I do think adding atx support is worth it. You can still use atx-sfx adapter to maintain decent cpu cooler space if you want.

1. The problem with those coolers is they blow down on to the heatsink. Nornally this isn't an issue, but in this layout, it would be fighting against the PSU fan. Inverting the PSU is an oprion, but it works better acting as an exauhst.

2. There's nothing wrong with m.2 drives, but having no drive mounts at all us just plain silly. Some people just fall back on the m.2 defence when they haven't factored drive bays into their design.

3. Hot air rises and GPUs put out a lot of heat. It's best to have it at the to of the case so the heat doesn't have to go through the case.

4. This is the SSF section. ATX PSUs are pure evil.

 

[sky2]

1. The problem with those coolers is they blow down on to the heatsink. Nornally this isn't an issue, but in this layout, it would be fighting against the PSU fan. Inverting the PSU is an oprion, but it works better acting as an exauhst.

2. There's nothing wrong with m.2 drives, but having no drive mounts at all us just plain silly. Some people just fall back on the m.2 defence when they haven't factored drive bays into their design.

3. Hot air rises and GPUs put out a lot of heat. It's best to have it at the to of the case so the heat doesn't have to go through the case.

4. This is the SSF section. ATX PSUs are pure evil.

1. Totally agree, that's why the Corsair H5 SF is optimal
2. M.2. is the way to go in a SFF build: saves room, 2 less cables and it's the future. But i don't agree about 2.5in drive. Nobody going to talk about legacy drives in the near future as they use the outdated Sata interface made for mechanical hard drives. If you need more cheap storage for video/pictures/music/documents: it's 2015: buy a NAS.
3. Not to sure about this, most GPU exhaust hot air at the top of card, most case put a mesh opening in that region to mitigate the potential heat issue. Otherwise: Blower card or Fury X like AIO cooling.
4. Totally agree, could not say it better

 

[medeyer]

I have an Asus 670 mini in my SG05 and it spreads the heat outwards. The top and bottom of the case gets hot when it's under load. Having it orientated at the top with proper ventilation would be beneficial.

More m.2 slots would be nice for ITX boards and I think they should be with at least one as standard. But as it is, very few ITX mobos have m.2 slots and SDDs are expensive, not to mention the pain in the ass it would be if you wanted to add more storage later on. 2.5" drives are easier to add and a lot of people still like using a HDDs for mass storage.

 

[sky2]

I have an Asus 670 mini in my SG05 and it spreads the heat outwards. The top and bottom of the case gets hot when it's under load. Having it orientated at the top with proper ventilation would be beneficial.

More m.2 slots would be nice for ITX boards and I think they should be with at least one as standard. But as it is, very few ITX mobos have m.2 slots and SDDs are expensive, not to mention the pain in the ass it would be if you wanted to add more storage later on. 2.5" drives are easier to add and a lot of people still like using a HDDs for mass storage.

Yes today 2.5 in drives are more common, but to design and bring to market a case, it usually takes 1-2 years (i.e. Ncase and Dan Cases). That's why when designing a case it needs to look a what the market will be, not what it is right now. And again, for cheap mass storage: buy a NAS and never look back.

 

[mejobloggs]

Well said sky2.

Imo if you're wanting to use a hdd in a mini-itx case then you're really looking for a not-so-mini-itx

 

[iFreilicht]

1. Totally agree, that's why the Corsair H5 SF is optimal
2. M.2. is the way to go in a SFF build: saves room, 2 less cables and it's the future. But i don't agree about 2.5in drive. Nobody going to talk about legacy drives in the near future as they use the outdated Sata interface made for mechanical hard drives. If you need more cheap storage for video/pictures/music/documents: it's 2015: buy a NAS.
3. Not to sure about this, most GPU exhaust hot air at the top of card, most case put a mesh opening in that region to mitigate the potential heat issue. Otherwise: Blower card or Fury X like AIO cooling.
4. Totally agree, could not say it better

1. Nope, the H5 SF is way too big to fit here you need a top-down cooler. In the best scenario, the PSU would take in air from the outside, so the two fans don't fight against each other.
2. That is just not true, sorry. While the near future will hold an increase in SSD capacity, they will also get cheaper and demand for storage will be higher. I believe that if you need lots of storage, a single M.2 drive is not going to cut it. 2.5" drives can fit double the surface area inside them, so for bulk storage, those will still be relevant. Not everyone has the money to buy a dedicated NAS and for some people that need highly mobile rigs, that just isn't an option at all. Additionally, a case should look be designed for the market of its planned release date, that's when most units are sold. Designing a case for a future that might not exist is not a worthwhile approach.
3. I agree, the fact that hot air rises is completely mitigated by the fans inside the case. Unless a case is passively cooled, convection doesn't matter for your cooling performance. The approach you outline should be perfectly fine.
4. Jup. Fuck ATX PSUs.

 

[killerfromsky]

Why would you remove the option for atx psu's?
If I chose to sacrifice cpu cooler space for atx instead of sfx then that should be an option?
You wont have to make the case bigger, just include a atx-> sfx bracket that offsets the sfx psu to the side? The width of the case is determined mostly by gfxcard width.

I still think its better to have gpu at the bottom because imo making a perforated bottom looks way cleaner.

The fact that hot air rises only matters without airflow.

And about the top-down coolers: they can have their fans flipped around most often making them down-top -> psu -> exhaust.

 

[iFreilicht]

Why would you remove the option for atx psu's?
If I chose to sacrifice cpu cooler space for atx instead of sfx then that should be an option?
You wont have to make the case bigger, just include a atx-> sfx bracket that offsets the sfx psu to the side? The width of the case is determined mostly by gfxcard width.

I still think its better to have gpu at the bottom because imo making a perforated bottom looks way cleaner.

The fact that hot air rises only matters without airflow.

And about the top-down coolers: they can have their fans flipped around most often making them down-top -> psu -> exhaust.

If you read the first post, this case would be shorter AND narrower, so an ATX PSU wouldn't fit anymore.

And yes, I thoroughly agree about flipped configurations on top-down coolers.

 

[medeyer]

Let's flip the question around and see how it goes.

Why would you want an ATX PSU in an ITX case?

You already owning one is not an answer.


But if you really need to know why SFX is so desirable over ATX, I'll list a few reasons here. I'm sure others will add to it.

1. Size. 22.5mm lower, 13mm narrower and a truckload shorter.
2. No need for excessive wattage.
3. All the essential connecteors.

 

[medeyer]

I agree, the fact that hot air rises is completely mitigated by the fans inside the case. Unless a case is passively cooled, convection doesn't matter for your cooling performance. The approach you outline should be perfectly fine.

This is something I've been meaning to test for some time, but I hypothesize that having a graphics card with an open air cooler at the bottom of the case can effectively increase the heat inside the case and ultimately on the CPU. Going with the basic law that hot air rises, the heat produced by a graphics card moves up through the case and to and CPU heatsink, increasing CPU core temperatures. With the graphics card at the top and proper ventilation, we could be looking at better overall temps.

Just a theory I have, even if it's only by 1-3 degrees, but if anyone knows of any other tests or experimental data, let me know.

 

[killerfromsky]

This is something I've been meaning to test for some time, but I hypothesize that having a graphics card with an open air cooler at the bottom of the case can effectively increase the heat inside the case and ultimately on the CPU. Going with the basic law that hot air rises, the heat produced by a graphics card moves up through the case and to and CPU heatsink, increasing CPU core temperatures. With the graphics card at the top and proper ventilation, we could be looking at better overall temps.

Just a theory I have, even if it's only by 1-3 degrees, but if anyone knows of any other tests or experimental data, let me know.

Convection wont matter, not even 1 degree difference, and if you'll find 1 degree difference it'll pretty much be within a 95% confidence interval.


Anyway, new dimension is 162mm width, that can house a 86mm ATX PSU? I don't know why you would even ditch it.

And the reason I would get an ATX psu is because noise complaints on pretty much every SFX PSU.
The fact that you'll need atleast around 160mm width due to graphics card only means you have more then ample of space to allow for an ATX PSU. It wont change dimensions.
If you want a higher CPU cooler and ram cooler sure, use an SFX PSU, but if you don't you can always use an ATX PSU.

Being able to use a 550 G2 (can keep fan always spinning for exhaust) or a RM550x would be rather usefull imo.

 

[Curiositie]

Convection wont matter, not even 1 degree difference, and if you'll find 1 degree difference it'll pretty much be within a 95% confidence interval.


Anyway, new dimension is 162mm width, that can house a 86mm ATX PSU? I don't know why you would even ditch it.

And the reason I would get an ATX psu is because noise complaints on pretty much every SFX PSU.
The fact that you'll need atleast around 160mm width due to graphics card only means you have more then ample of space to allow for an ATX PSU. It wont change dimensions.
If you want a higher CPU cooler and ram cooler sure, use an SFX PSU, but if you don't you can always use an ATX PSU.

Being able to use a 550 G2 (can keep fan always spinning for exhaust) or a RM550x would be rather usefull imo.

With my SX500-LG, I haven't noticed any noise issues, it's quieter than my reference 980 and C7.

I agree that ATX has an advantage in potential noise produced.

if you only have 160mm to work with that PSU will have to be less than 160mm, there's not a ton of those available. The Strider PSU's come to mind though.

162mm is only 2mm more than the 160mm of the RM550X and acutally less than the 165mm of the 550G2. ( no room for cables)

 

[killerfromsky]

With my SX500-LG, I haven't noticed any noise issues, it's quieter than my reference 980 and C7.

I agree that ATX has an advantage in potential noise produced.

if you only have 160mm to work with that PSU will have to be less than 160mm, there's not a ton of those available. The Strider PSU's come to mind though.

162mm is only 2mm more than the 160mm of the RM550X and acutally less than the 165mm of the 550G2. ( no room for cables)

I'm NOT talking about the length of the PSU at all in this topic. Just the height (at 86mm defined by the ATX standard). You'll always have atleast 170mm length due to ITX size in this layout, enough for quite a few ATX psu's.

 

[Curiositie]

I'm NOT talking about the length of the PSU at all in this topic. Just the height (at 86mm defined by the ATX standard). You'll always have atleast 170mm length due to ITX size in this layout, enough for quite a few ATX psu's.

My apologies, I misunderstood.

Still though, if you have to increase the length of the case to make an ATX PSU fit, I don't think it's too relevant that it could fit height-wise.

Unless you don't want to increase the length and limit it to ~140mm PSUs.