Navi discussion thread

and nvidia also dropped 50$ on the vanilla/regular 2070 and 2060 gpus making again navi irrelevant beyond their own AMD fanbase, but AMD is not offering a GPU to their fanbase to upgrade... no incentive, navi won't be any compelling to any nvidia follower. Turing is overpriced, Navi it is even more..


No.

The 2070 is discontinued. The 2060 dropped in price. Based on leaks Navi is comfortably quicker than both the 2060 and 2070. Navi is now $100 cheaper than the super, super might have slightly better performance and rtx up to consumer to decide if that's worth 25% more money.
 
No.

The 2070 is discontinued. The 2060 dropped in price. Based on leaks Navi is comfortably quicker than both the 2060 and 2070. Navi is now $100 cheaper than the super, super might have slightly better performance and rtx up to consumer to decide if that's worth 25% more money.

Indeed, but we have seen AMD with price cuts before that hasn't lead to any substantial market change, whether this price cut (if true) will change it remains to be seen. Personally, I just don't see AMD have a reason to make a price cut if it is already the cheaper option and if performance is within parity of each other.
 
errr, what? This isn't about credit. It is simply what happened.

AMD released Navi specs/pricing (action), and NVidia responded by releasing new products to play spoiler to AMDs launch (reaction), then AMD responded by lowering prices to regain it's launch footing (reaction). It almost certainly stops there.




A: it's a fact that NVidia just caused AMD to lose about $30-$50 of each cards launch price. What it cost NVidia to do this doesn't change that fact.

B: The days of significant free transistors on smaller processes are long gone. You can't compare die size across different processes. What you should be looking at is transistor counts because Transistor costs have flat lined as I was discussing in a another thread:
https://hardforum.com/threads/nvidi...review-roundup.1983562/page-3#post-1044252128

View attachment 171995

The 2060/2060 Super/2070 FE Die and the 5700 Die have similar transistor counts, and likely have similar die cost.

The new 2070 Super moves up to the 2080 die, so it has a more costly, higher transistor count die, than the 5700Xt. But a heavily cut down part, so hard to pin down, but NVidia is almost certainly at a cost disadvantage here.

C: But being first to market matters a lot. NVidia has had something like 8 months to charge full premium before this recent "price cut", while AMD faces a price cut out of the gate. Cutting to the extreme example to make this point. 5700 and 2060 FE/Super have similar costs. NVidia could make a profit for 8 months, then cut prices to ZERO profit when AMD shows up in the market. End result NVidia still makes an overall profit on 2060, and AMD makes zero. This isn't being "pro-NVidia", just pointing out what an advantage being first to market is. It would be suicide for the late comer to start a price war.


to say that nvidia caused amd to lose money but AMD releasing these cards had nothing to do nvidia dropping prices on their cards? You can't have it one way and not the other. I can bet AMD is making more money on their cards still vs Nvidia. Because they are still getting more per wafer than nvidia. I like your explanation but that has nothing to do with what we have at play though. We can't go back in time, we can't change what has happened. What matters is what is here and now. The real bank is goinig to be made on CPUs. AT $400 amd is probabbly still making mad margins on these cards. But who actually cares though? I am not going to sit here and complain about lower prices or get in to how almighty nvidia made amd lose money. Now if nvidia drops their cards, did AMD make nvidia lose more money? Dont matter. At the end its nice to see the price. I am not sure if you can see my previous comments. I have said this plenty of time, 5700xt was overpriced by 50 and AMD had the price cut priced in already because 399.99 was plenty. And guess what they drop it to 399.99 like I had thought. I was thinking holiday season.
 
Indeed, but we have seen AMD with price cuts before that hasn't lead to any substantial market change, whether this price cut (if true) will change it remains to be seen. Personally, I just don't see AMD have a reason to make a price cut if it is already the cheaper option and if performance is within parity of each other.
But it makes the Navi cards more palatable rather then stuck at Nvidia pricing which does not sit well with me.
Still not $250 but a viable purchase.
 
No.

The 2070 is discontinued. The 2060 dropped in price. Based on leaks Navi is comfortably quicker than both the 2060 and 2070. Navi is now $100 cheaper than the super, super might have slightly better performance and rtx up to consumer to decide if that's worth 25% more money.

This. At the end of the day its better deal for consumers. 25% cheaper and 6-8% less performance then 2070 super. From the few leaked benches it looks like 5700xt will be close to 1080ti for 400. Which is a damn good price/performance.
 
But it makes the Navi cards more palatable rather then stuck at Nvidia pricing which does not sit well with me.
Still not $250 but a viable purchase.

250 was out of the questions. I think AdoredTV is still mad about that for making a video about it lol. I mean it was hard for me to believe, that fresh process on 7nm and close to 1080ti performance was going to be 250 for 5700xt. I think its probably costing them 200-250 from production to delivery to retailer for these parts and they would likely have no margin at those prices. 400 is not bad for the performance it will put out and amd still makes some healthy margins.
 
250 was out of the questions. I think AdoredTV is still mad about that for making a video about it lol. I mean it was hard for me to believe, that fresh process on 7nm and close to 1080ti performance was going to be 250 for 5700xt. I think its probably costing them 200-250 from production to delivery to retailer for these parts and they would likely have no margin at those prices. 400 is not bad for the performance it will put out and amd still makes some healthy margins.
I've linked the Fudzilla article as well with that same price point. And before the end of last year so either they have the same sources or it is most likely something that was planned.

Navi is not the best AMD can do but AMD did their best and I hope that this is a step in the right direction, marketing wise it is still the blind leading the cripple that has to be fixed if they want to sell their next series (not Navi) (2021).

Here is what I would like to know about Navi , they been talking about using lower ipc instructions, how would that work out for things as DX11 and Open-gl are they going to optimize it for those instructions since whatever they do now the future RDNA cards will also benefit.
 
I've linked the Fudzilla article as well with that same price point. And before the end of last year so either they have the same sources or it is most likely something that was planned.

Navi is not the best AMD can do but AMD did their best and I hope that this is a step in the right direction, marketing wise it is still the blind leading the cripple that has to be fixed if they want to sell their next series (not Navi) (2021).

Here is what I would like to know about Navi , they been talking about using lower ipc instructions, how would that work out for things as DX11 and Open-gl are they going to optimize it for those instructions since whatever they do now the future RDNA cards will also benefit.

from the looks of it RDNA with navi is making up in dx11. Assasins creed used to destroy GCN but with RDNA it was actually ahead of 2070 by a bit. So looks like whatever they did was more geared towards maximizing gaming performance vs DX12 where GCN was fully utilized.
 
to say that nvidia caused amd to lose money but AMD releasing these cards had nothing to do nvidia dropping prices on their cards? You can't have it one way and not the other.

I never said AMD had nothing to do with NVidias price cut. Quite the opposite in fact. In the post you quoted, and many others I clearly stated, that the whole point of Super was a reaction to Navi, it was an attempt mess with the Navi launch. AMD clearly recognized the problem and responded with price cuts of their own.

The problem you seem to be having is recognizing that AMD's new drop in launch price, costs them real money. If Nvidia didn't cut it's price, then AMD wouldn't have needed to cut it's price, and AMD would have gotten more money for it's cards.

From AMD's perspective, is it hard to understand why more money per card is better? :D
 
If the price drop info is true... I would say AMD just out gamed NV.

AMD has clearly known the super cards where coming. There are no major secretes in the industry... one partner talks to a buddy here or there over a beer and even if AMD didn't have a card in hand they would have had a good idea what NVs plan was.

The slides AMD showed off for NAVI where vs 2070/2060 founders cards... they only mentioned it in the fine print and publicly days later (after super was already locked in). So NV releases some super cards that are closer to the founders cards then the regular partner cards in performance and a slightly lower price. Review sites are going to pit 5700 vs the supers and see numbers not far off the numbers AMD already talked about... and at the last second they drop their actual pricing before product is even on the shelf.

People have also been talking about Ryzen2/Navi release timing with the US long weekend. I think it's brilliant a ton of Intel and NV marketing types not around to properly respond. (ok I'm sure those folks are just working more then they would like).

Still it's nice to see AMD not just up their game on the hardware but also the gamesmanship. I held off a smoking deal on a vega56 just incase 5700 was worth a few extra pennies.... crossing my fingers that I didn't F up not pulling the trigger on a $350 cnd 56. lol

That's a pretty optimistic assessment.

A more realistic assessment is: AMD did a nice save, when the Super cards spoiled their launch with better performance, but it still loses them money compared to what they would have got without Super cards stepping on their launch

AMDs slides showed them slightly ahead of the old Founders editions, but at least with a lead.

Then NVidia released "Super" cards with about 15% more performance, that puts them in the lead, which kind of makes Navi DOA, without a price cut.

It isn't master class planning that backs you into a corner, forcing you to cut prices before launch day.
 
I never said AMD had nothing to do with NVidias price cut. Quite the opposite in fact. In the post you quoted, and many others I clearly stated, that the whole point of Super was a reaction to Navi, it was an attempt mess with the Navi launch. AMD clearly recognized the problem and responded with price cuts of their own.

The problem you seem to be having is recognizing that AMD's new drop in launch price, costs them real money. If Nvidia didn't cut it's price, then AMD wouldn't have needed to cut it's price, and AMD would have gotten more money for it's cards.

From AMD's perspective, is it hard to understand why more money per card is better? :D

same goes to nvidia. lol. Yea more money is better no doubt in both cases. But They are making much more vs they did with polaris. I think its about 75%+ margin right now because I doubt these cards are costing anything more than 200-250 all the way to retailers.
 
That's a pretty optimistic assessment.

A more realistic assessment is: AMD did a nice save, when the Super cards spoiled their launch with better performance, but it still loses them money compared to what they would have got without Super cards stepping on their launch

AMDs slides showed them slightly ahead of the old Founders editions, but at least with a lead.

Then NVidia released "Super" cards with about 15% more performance, that puts them in the lead, which kind of makes Navi DOA, without a price cut.

It isn't master class planning that backs you into a corner, forcing you to cut prices before launch day.

Good news for gamers, less good for AMD.
 
same goes to nvidia. lol. Yea more money is better no doubt in both cases. But They are making much more vs they did with polaris. I think its about 75%+ margin right now because I doubt these cards are costing anything more than 200-250 all the way to retailers.

75% margin, that would be a fantasy, even before the price cuts. This card is quite a bit more expensive to produce than Polaris. Polaris was 5.7 Billion Transistors, vs 10.3 Billion Transistors for Navi. 80% more Transistors in a time of flat-lining transistor prices means Navi die is MUCH more expensive than Polaris. GDDR6 is also more expensive than GDDR5.
 
same goes to nvidia. lol. Yea more money is better no doubt in both cases. But They are making much more vs they did with polaris. I think its about 75%+ margin right now because I doubt these cards are costing anything more than 200-250 all the way to retailers.
I say probably closer to 300 if I were to account average AMD margin of 30-40%.
 
I say probably closer to 300 if I were to account average AMD margin of 30-40%.

I think initially before the crypto boom the margins were around 20-30% on polaris at $250 from what I read. At 400% has to be above 50% for sure.
 
I think initially before the crypto boom the margins were around 20-30% on polaris at $250 from what I read. At 400% has to be above 50% for sure.
That could be the case, I am just thinking from the stand point of a healthy margin for AMD. In any case, higher margins for AMD is good for AMD.
 
That could be the case, I am just thinking from the stand point of a healthy margin for AMD. In any case, higher margins for AMD is good for AMD.

Actually the bulk of money that is currently coming into AMD is more then likely not from the consumer space ......
 
Actually the bulk of money that is currently coming into AMD is more then likely not from the consumer space ......

yep. It seems they are getting more deals with google/microsoft vs what nvidia is getting. But for sure nvidia has a leg up in GPU space in pro market. But AMD will likely make some good money over next few years on the CPU server side for sure. That is going to be the real money maker and bring more money back for R&D and feed the beast. lol!
 
I've linked the Fudzilla article as well with that same price point. And before the end of last year so either they have the same sources or it is most likely something that was planned.

Navi is not the best AMD can do but AMD did their best and I hope that this is a step in the right direction, marketing wise it is still the blind leading the cripple that has to be fixed if they want to sell their next series (not Navi) (2021).

Here is what I would like to know about Navi , they been talking about using lower ipc instructions, how would that work out for things as DX11 and Open-gl are they going to optimize it for those instructions since whatever they do now the future RDNA cards will also benefit.

Haven't your heard of how misinformation spread across the internet?

A disreputable source posted misinformation.

Pretty soon the misinformation spread all over the internet.

Just because the misinformation is on multiple websites does NOT mean that it was was true.
 
Haven't your heard of how misinformation spread across the internet?
A disreputable source posted misinformation.
Pretty soon the misinformation spread all over the internet.
Just because the misinformation is on multiple websites does NOT mean that it was was true.
I told you before that Fudzilla has their own sources. Misinformation does not include speculation , those things are different just as reading someone his/her post and just replying with whatever is on your agenda.

For myself I know what speculation is I looked it up in the dictionary I posted it on this forum even for some members to look what it is exactly. You want me to link both definitions in next post especially for you ?
 
I told you before that Fudzilla has their own sources.

Since "sources" are typically anonymous and secret, there is no way to know if they were different. Or if one source read it from the other and thought it would be funny to spread the misinformation.

They were so clearly and obviously wrong, to anyone thinking clearly at the time, that two sites claiming nonsense don't make it right, just like two wrongs don't make a right.

You really needed to be deep into wishful thinking to believe RTX 2070 performance for $250 was coming.

As I said before, the problem is not ridiculous rumors. Those always happen. Its that some people get so invested in believing them. To the point that some are still defending them after they are proven definitively false.
 
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Because they are still getting more per wafer than nvidia.

This is only one factor of many obvious factors for per-die cost at any given point in time. Without multiple corroborating sources, your statement rates no higher than wild speculation.
 
I'm trying to follow this, based on reviews now out, and the price drop.
Can I say Navi doesn't suck?
Or does it still suck?
 
I'm trying to follow this, based on reviews now out, and the price drop.
Can I say Navi doesn't suck?
Or does it still suck?

It doesnt suck, and will suck a bit less in a few weeks when partner cards come out.
 
So far it's making me think the big Navi that is coming will be quite good. Just hoping the downward trend in pricing continues tho.
 
Navi 20, aka "Big Navi" (...they call me Big Navi...) will be spectacular...!
 
I knew it...now it is "Wait for BIG Navi"?
It is always "wait for..." lol
Slowly getting closer to having a card worthy of upgrading to...

Likely Big Navi or Nvidia Ampre for me.

AMD or Nvidia would have my money in 2020:
7nm+
12GB+ GDDR6 18Gbps
Display Port 2.0

Better than next gen console performance (should set you up for 5-7 years of games designed for that performance level)! That will give me 10+ years out of a single PC build....


That's all I ask.... Tired of SLI (2014).
 
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I knew it...now it is "Wait for BIG Navi"?
It is always "wait for..." lol

Like waiting for your useless comment in a AMD thread, we all know it's coming sooner or later. Some of us are happy to see competition back again in the gpu department.
 
Like waiting for your useless comment in a AMD thread, we all know it's coming sooner or later. Some of us are happy to see competition back again in the gpu department.

Or waiting for AMD to unimpress and fall short of their own hype, yet again?

Cause they did that again too.

Performance is middling, cooler is awful, drivers are a shitshow, and overclocking is fundamentally broken.

Even if price / performance tilts in favor of Navi, release Navi is not the card you want.
 
Or waiting for AMD to unimpress and fall short of their own hype, yet again?

Cause they did that again too.

Performance is middling, cooler is awful, drivers are a shitshow, and overclocking is fundamentally broken.

Even if price / performance tilts in favor of Navi, release Navi is not the card you want.
Frankly I say it is Nvidia hype, the 5700XT cremes the 2060 Super as well as the 5700 the 2060 and the 5700XT virtually ties the 2070 Super. Both at the same price points for the lower tier Nvidia cards. Nvidia Super is not so super duper even with their massive price cut per performance it does not match AMD perf/$. As for the cooler, good grief, you can find blower coolers on Nvidia 2080 Ti's there is a place for them, people do want them. AIB partners should have some nice choices for those who prefer other cooling methods. Personally I like the blower coolers and the AIO type cards that take the heat out of the case. Yes for some the noise can be bothersome for others, like a fine tuned race car that barely idles sounds like music. Each there own in other words. I would agree Nvidia Super coolers are superior to cooling the GPU, there are also other considerations beyond the GPU. In this case AMD and OEM sells can be a big thing and having a quality blower card is actually important. With Ryzen 3 out, excitement up, AMD will have cards more fitting for the crowd who just wants to buy the whole computer and game.

I should be getting my Lisa Su signature card this Friday, should be able to play around with it this coming Sunday.
 
Or waiting for AMD to unimpress and fall short of their own hype, yet again?

Cause they did that again too.

Performance is middling, cooler is awful, drivers are a shitshow, and overclocking is fundamentally broken.

Even if price / performance tilts in favor of Navi, release Navi is not the card you want.

Best ones to slap a water block on and is what I did on my 290x, the rest just isn't worth a response to you on.
 
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