Jedi Survivor is the best showcase of a looming problem for PC players

kac77 said:
Well if you can't use DLSS on your own hardware then I don't even agree with the last part.
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Well, reviewers, including HUB showed it to be superior to FSR, yes, it can't be used on the Switch, I know this, this was just my response your assumed statement of my thoughts on FSR.
kac77 said:
We've been talking about the PC ports this entire time. Literally its in the title of this thread and no it does not look better than 3/4 of the UE4 games available.
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Yes, and my original statement was one that stated how games look visually dated, i.e., 2023 games looking like they're straight out of 2018. My response was Arkham Knights to your asking for examples, despite it having a piss poor port, and still looked better than a lot of games released since.
kac77 said:
Yup just slower because of lack of VRAM.
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You still left out the detail. I honestly don't even know why you brought the 3070 into this because I surely didn't. I just said Doom Eternal can run basically on a potato. Since you want to bring it into the discussion--the 3070 can average about 70 FPS at 4K Ultra Nightmare with 1% lows in the mid-50's, and that's pretty damn good for an 8GB mid-range card on a game that looks that good. Then again, the 3070 was aimed at 1440p, not 4K, and the fact that it proves my point that Doom Eternal even at highest setting can run on a mid-range card with respectable frame rates even at 4K, supposedly VRAM capped, proves my point even further.
kac77 said:
It requires more than 8GB though at high settings.
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No, that's Ultra Nightmare settings at 4k, 1440p it uses roughly 6.5GB, and that's total usage, not per process usage, and as I just said, it averages 70 FPS with lows in the mid-50's at 4k on a card designed for 1440p, that's great optimization, something that seems to be foreign these days.
kac77 said:
And EA is as well with Jedi Survivor.
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We'll see in two years if Jedi Survivor is still being supported. Considering CP2077 was in development and mid-way through the PS5/Series X were announced so it being available on 5 platforms it was all over the place, and I'd venture to guess CDPR being a smaller publisher/developer than EA they wouldn't have the resources or time to test each platform, and do proper optimizations, especially considering it's an open world title; at least it did push the envelope on graphics. Jedi Survivor is a next gen only title, meaning PS5/Series X/PC, and EA is a huge company, so testing, and optimizing should have been a vastly simpler effort, that and it's only semi-open world.
kac77 said:
Nope. Digital Foundry complained about it not being optimized and how it used too much VRAM.
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I haven't seen any issues. It's using 9.2GB on my 4070Ti according to Rivatuners per process usage. I think it scales to what's available, because the menu tells me it should be using 13.2 but it's using 4GB less. Either way, it's far more optimized than any other UE4 game released in the past seven months at release.
 
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Game is just unstable for me. Audio cuts in and out. Game lags, locks up while playing, loading, etc. None of my other games do this. Uninstalled. Pity.
 
spaceman said:
Game is just unstable for me. Audio cuts in and out. Game lags, locks up while playing, loading, etc. None of my other games do this. Uninstalled. Pity.
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The pity is how some would have you believe you need 64GB of high speed RAM and a GPU with 24GB to be able to play something that isn't even that visually impressive on comparison to older games.
 
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Usual_suspect said:
Well, reviewers, including HUB showed it to be superior to FSR, yes, it can't be used on the Switch, I know this, this was just my response your assumed statement of my thoughts on FSR.
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Yup and HUB also said 8GB wasn't enough anymore for mainstream cards. Glad we are back to believing them again.
Usual_suspect said:
Yes, and my original statement was one that stated how games look visually dated, i.e., 2023 games looking like they're straight out of 2018. My response was Arkham Knights to your asking for examples, despite it having a piss poor port, and still looked better than a lot of games released since.
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It really doesn't. I have the game even at 4K the textures aren't anywhere near the level of current triple AAA games.
Usual_suspect said:
You still left out the detail. I honestly don't even know why you brought the 3070 into this because I surely didn't. I just said Doom Eternal can run basically on a potato. Since you want to bring it into the discussion--the 3070 can average about 70 FPS at 4K Ultra Nightmare with 1% lows in the mid-50's, and that's pretty damn good for an 8GB mid-range card on a game that looks that good. Then again, the 3070 was aimed at 1440p, not 4K, and the fact that it proves my point that Doom Eternal even at highest setting can run on a mid-range card with respectable frame rates even at 4K, supposedly VRAM capped, proves my point even further.
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I left out detail because we haven't included that in the discussion. We've been talking about VRAM solely. The 3070 was apart of the discussion with its 8GB of RAM for quite some time. Doom Eternal is an old game. The 3070 is not a midrange card. Does it become VRAM constrained? Yes or no. The answer is yes as HUB stated.
Usual_suspect said:
No, that's Ultra Nightmare settings at 4k, 1440p it uses roughly 6.5GB, and that's total usage, not per process usage, and as I just said, it averages 70 FPS with lows in the mid-50's at 4k on a card designed for 1440p, that's great optimization, something that seems to be foreign these days.
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Don't care what the detail settings are. Is it VRAM constrained at 4K? Yes.
Usual_suspect said:
I haven't seen any issues. It's using 9.2GB on my 4070Ti according to Rivatuners per process usage. I think it scales to what's available, because the menu tells me it should be using 13.2 but it's using 4GB less. Either way, it's far more optimized than any other UE4 game released in the past seven months at release.
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Whether you saw them or not wasn't your point. You said it had no issues. DF complained all over the place. Maybe if people weren't calling every non-TWIMTBP game unoptimized in a haphazard fashion we wouldn't be talking about this.
 
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ZeroBarrier said:
The pity is how some would have you believe you need 64GB of high speed RAM and a GPU with 24GB to be able to play something that isn't even that visually impressive on comparison to older games.
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Huh? I agree it should not take that much run it. Just saying it runs like crap on my PC and I am not going to try too hard to get it to work. Just waiting until they patch it up and hopefully remove the DRM.
 
kac77 said:
Yup and HUB also said 8GB wasn't enough anymore for mainstream cards. Glad we are back to believing them again.
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Black and white much? I only mentioned them because I know you seem to grasp at everything they say.
kac77 said:
It really doesn't. I have the game even at 4K the textures aren't anywhere near the level of current triple AAA games.
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It doesn’t matter-your opinion is your opinion, mine is mine.
kac77 said:
I left out detail because we haven't included that in the discussion. We've been talking about VRAM solely. The 3070 was apart of the discussion with its 8GB of RAM for quite some time. Doom Eternal is an old game. The 3070 is not a midrange card. Does it become VRAM constrained? Yes or no. The answer is yes as HUB stated.

Don't care what the detail settings are. Is it VRAM constrained at 4K? Yes.
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It’s those graphics settings that use VRAM. Just saying the card is VRAM capped on Doom Eternal but not giving specifics or why, and referencing HUB shows, again, you grasp to everything they say. Game settings exist for a reason, bucko, to allow the user to fine tune games to run on their computer. Not everything has to be ran at Ultra for a great experience.

Again, go watch some videos and peel your eyes away from the graphs, the 3070 runs Doom Eternal at 4k highest in-game settings, utilizing 7.3GB of VRAM. Try doing that with ANY title today with either the 4070ti/7900XT, and it should be possible for to do this, but game companies are getting lazy and greedy, and it shows because this gigantic resource requirement bump only happened because games aren’t being optimized properly.

At least in the case of Doom Eternal, CP2077, Witcher 3–it shows you can have phenomenal looking games that aren’t chomping down tons of VRAM to look good. Yes, they use almost, if not more than 8GB of VRAM, but, in the case of Witcher 3 and CP2077, the settings that require that would kill a 3070, hell it’d bring the 6800XT to its knees, so dripping the settings drops the VRAM usage, making VRAM consumption a moot point.

The 3070 is a mid-range card, no amount of whatever you say will change the fact. People making the xx70 cards out to be high end are just wrong, especially HUB. There’s a reason why they don’t ever slap tons of VRAM on them, there’s a reason they’re only really capable of 1440p, there’s a reason there’s two tiers above it, and two tiers below it-it’s middle of the pack, mid-range.


kac77 said:
Whether you saw them or not wasn't your point. You said it had no issues. DF complained all over the place. Maybe if people weren't calling every non-TWIMTBP game unoptimized in a haphazard fashion we wouldn't be talking about this.
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I don’t care about what DF says, I see what I see, and that’s that. If Capcom makes it better, kudos to them, it runs fine for me.
 
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Usual_suspect said:
Yes, they use almost, if not more than 8GB of VRAM,
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Thanks for finally getting there. I'm glad we now can move forward with the understanding that 8Gb of VRAM, even from games that are more than five years ago, simply isn't enough. It took us a while but I think we've grown from the process.

Ever think that might be why they look so good? 😂
 
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kac77 said:
Thanks for finally getting there. I'm glad we now can move forward with the understanding that 8Gb of VRAM, even from games that are more than five years ago, simply isn't enough. It took us a while but I think we've grown from the process.

Ever think that might be why they look so good? 😂
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You forgot the rest of what I said—I guess selective reading is your forte, because even a 6800XT with 16GB VRAM wouldn’t run at the settings in those two games when you push settings high enough to go over 8GB, let alone a 3070. Oh, and Witcher 3’s next gen patch just came out, not five years ago, might want to research what’s actually changed.

Yes, because of the texture quality, graphical settings, etc. but you must be missing my point, so I’ll go slowly—

CDPR managed to optimize both Witcher 3 with next gen patch and CP2077 to the point that their graphics are great and using resources that reflect their graphics.

EA who’s much bigger than CDPR

Released a game with worse graphics than Witcher 3 and CP2077 thats somehow requiring more resources to run…

It’s sorta fixed now, but in comparison, is still broken, and a travesty that a company like EA and Respawn with vastly more resources can’t figure out what CDPR did with less resources on hand.

In other words—broken games are using broken amounts of resources, once fixed I’m sure the 3070 will be perfectly fine—wait, it already is for those of us not living in “Ultra” land, your favorite source, HUB already verified this with the latest Jedi Survivor patch.

Come back when you can actually prove me wrong, because as it stands, everything you’re saying is backed only by your opinion, not real world facts.
 
Usual_suspect said:
You forgot the rest of what I said—I guess selective reading is your forte, because even a 6800XT with 16GB VRAM wouldn’t run at the settings in those two games when you push settings high enough to go over 8GB, let alone a 3070. Oh, and Witcher 3’s next gen patch just came out, not five years ago, might want to research what’s actually changed.

Yes, because of the texture quality, graphical settings, etc. but you must be missing my point, so I’ll go slowly—

CDPR managed to optimize both Witcher 3 with next gen patch and CP2077 to the point that their graphics are great and using resources that reflect their graphics.

EA who’s much bigger than CDPR

Released a game with worse graphics than Witcher 3 and CP2077 thats somehow requiring more resources to run…

It’s sorta fixed now, but in comparison, is still broken, and a travesty that a company like EA and Respawn with vastly more resources can’t figure out what CDPR did with less resources on hand.

In other words—broken games are using broken amounts of resources, once fixed I’m sure the 3070 will be perfectly fine—wait, it already is for those of us not living in “Ultra” land, your favorite source, HUB already verified this with the latest Jedi Survivor patch.

Come back when you can actually prove me wrong, because as it stands, everything you’re saying is backed only by your opinion, not real world facts.
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Uh huh. Again thank you for agreeing with me that 8GB isn't enough.
 
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Bowman15 said:
That high end PC gamers are the absolute fucking worst demographic of players in all of gaming. Arguing and whining over and over when new games come out. 🤨
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DpQ9YJl.png
 
Usual_suspect said:
2023 games looking like they're straight out of 2018. My response was Arkham Knights to your asking for examples, despite it having a piss poor port, and still looked better than a lot of games released since.
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Gotham Knights looks objectively worse than Arkham Knight which was released in 2015. Arkham Knight remains the most disastrous PC port of all time. Jedi Survivor doesn't even come close to being as bad as Arkham Knight was no matter the rhetoric being thrown around to the contrary.
Usual_suspect said:
We'll see in two years if Jedi Survivor is still being supported. Considering CP2077 was in development and mid-way through the PS5/Series X were announced so it being available on 5 platforms it was all over the place, and I'd venture to guess CDPR being a smaller publisher/developer than EA they wouldn't have the resources or time to test each platform, and do proper optimizations, especially considering it's an open world title; at least it did push the envelope on graphics. Jedi Survivor is a next gen only title, meaning PS5/Series X/PC, and EA is a huge company, so testing, and optimizing should have been a vastly simpler effort, that and it's only semi-open world.
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I don't think you understand how game development works. Respawn made Jedi Survivor, not EA. Respawn is a division of EA, but these companies are more or less self-contained. Sure, they have mandates from their corporate overlords but they are a smaller developer that's attached to a large publisher. This is actually pretty awful because Respawn doesn't get to tell EA "no" on any front and EA will want them to do a lot with few resources in the interests of cost savings. We've seen evidence that EA allows these developers to basically operate in a silo. We saw this with BioWare many times over. Companies that do game ports also tend to just make the game run at a minimum and don't really test it on a variety of machines. Most of the time, tests are focused more on GPU's than CPU's. etc. You have the actual game developer and the company who ported it to PC in most of these cases. That's a couple of different groups and you have EA/Respawn trying to do it as cheaply as possible.

Cyberpunk 2077 for better or for worse was developed entirely in house and was in a far worse state than Jedi Survivor was at launch. Furthermore, again,. you can't reference the size of EA and the size of CDPR and say XYZ should have been easier to optimize. One, I don't think you know what optimization in a game actually means and two, using different engines and working through another party to get the work done versus in-house are very different things.
 
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Dan_D said:
Gotham Knights looks objectively worse than Arkham Knight which was released in 2015. Arkham Knight remains the most disastrous PC port of all time. Jedi Survivor doesn't even come close to being as bad as Arkham Knight was no matter the rhetoric being thrown around to the contrary.

I don't think you understand how game development works. Respawn made Jedi Survivor, not EA. Respawn is a division of EA, but these companies are more or less self-contained. Sure, they have mandates from their corporate overlords but they are a smaller developer that's attached to a large publisher. This is actually pretty awful because Respawn doesn't get to tell EA "no" on any front and EA will want them to do a lot with few resources in the interests of cost savings. We've seen evidence that EA allows these developers to basically operate in a silo. We saw this with BioWare many times over. Companies that do game ports also tend to just make the game run at a minimum and don't really test it on a variety of machines. Most of the time, tests are focused more on GPU's than CPU's. etc. You have the actual game developer and the company who ported it to PC in most of these cases. That's a couple of different groups and you have EA/Respawn trying to do it as cheaply as possible.

Cyberpunk 2077 for better or for worse was developed entirely in house and was in a far worse state than Jedi Survivor was at launch. Furthermore, again,. you can't reference the size of EA and the size of CDPR and say XYZ should have been easier to optimize. One, I don't think you know what optimization in a game actually means and two, using different engines and working through another party to get the work done versus in-house are very different things.
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EA gives their studios all the budget and resources they need to hang themselves, it's a common thing. The small studio makes great things, a big publisher buys them throws money and resources at them, and tells them to do in 2 years what it previously took them 5 to do. Management at the small team has to branch out and delegate but doesn't have the skills needed to because managing 50 people is vastly different than managing 5000, and everything becomes a jumbled mess as poor communication and direction causes the various puzzle pieces to not fit so you have to throw resources at fixing the pieces which put you behind schedule which means you need more people to bring you back up to speed but they don't have the history or the project specific knowledge so their pieces don't fit so you need to put resources on fixing them so you need more people to fix their problems and next thing you know you are 6 months behind schedule with an empty budget and launch day 2 weeks away.
Most projects types but software in particular does not scale even remotely linearly with manpower, Text Books give the example that it takes ~9 months to make a baby, if you put 3 women on it you can't get one in 3 instead, you will get 3 but it will still take ~9 months and you just have that many more growing pains to deal with.
 
Lakados said:
EA gives their studios all the budget and resources they need to hang themselves, it's a common thing. The small studio makes great things, a big publisher buys them throws money and resources at them, and tells them to do in 2 years what it previously took them 5 to do. Management at the small team has to branch out and delegate but doesn't have the skills needed to because managing 50 people is vastly different than managing 5000, and everything becomes a jumbled mess as poor communication and direction causes the various puzzle pieces to not fit so you have to throw resources at fixing the pieces which put you behind schedule which means you need more people to bring you back up to speed but they don't have the history or the project specific knowledge so their pieces don't fit so you need to put resources on fixing them so you need more people to fix their problems and next thing you know you are 6 months behind schedule with an empty budget and launch day 2 weeks away.
Most projects types but software in particular does not scale even remotely linearly with manpower, Text Books give the example that it takes ~9 months to make a baby, if you put 3 women on it you can't get one in 3 instead, you will get 3 but it will still take ~9 months and you just have that many more growing pains to deal with.
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Exactly. You can't say Jedi Survivor should have come out in a better state compared to Cyberpunk 2077 because EA is much bigger than CDPR. You reach a point where additional people cannot increase throughput of the work. It works that way with pretty much anything.
 
Dan_D said:
Exactly. You can't say Jedi Survivor should have come out in a better state compared to Cyberpunk 2077 because EA is much bigger than CDPR. You reach a point where additional people cannot increase throughput of the work. It works that way with pretty much anything.
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Thank you for the correction, I do need to stop carelessly using the phrase “lazy developers.” I know it’s not them per-se, it’s the higher ups.

Mismanagement is very common in all industries, at the end of the day though, Jedi Survivor isn’t a sprawling open world game, it’s semi-open world, and in comparison to size, about 1/3 the size of CP2077. Games like that shouldn’t require a lot of work to fix, at least not in my mind.

As for Arkham Knight, I only mentioned the visuals, I know the game was broken at launch, but my point was the visual fidelity compared to games these days.
 
Dan_D said:
Exactly. You can't say Jedi Survivor should have come out in a better state compared to Cyberpunk 2077 because EA is much bigger than CDPR. You reach a point where additional people cannot increase throughput of the work. It works that way with pretty much anything.
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I would also note that they were given additional time. The launch was pushed back like a month-ish.
 
Sycraft said:
I would also note that they were given additional time. The launch was pushed back like a month-ish.
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This game isn't small. It's pretty damn big and ambitious. Also almost EVERY game gets delayed, especially if it's AAA. AAA titles have many moving parts.

You've got audio assets that come from other locations/studios, mo-cap, the QA and compatibility testing also in another location. Then you have localization. If you're doing a multi-platform release it's even worse. People really don't understand what it takes to release a game. Then you've got the publisher demands. EA in terms of publishing is the absolute worst!. They incentivize games to be released before they are completely baked. It's not as bad with digital downloads now, but back in the day there was a whole shelf spacing thing with how long a game could be on the shelf which made the release dates far more strict.

Jedi Survivor is NOT the worst port. It just isn't. Not anywhere close. Could it have been better? Absolutely. But I'm speaking from my own experience of knowing games shipped with console breaking bugs.
 
The game is pretty, but it crashes practically every session.

"LowLevelFatalError [File:Unknown] [Line: 686] hr failed at D:/depot/r8branches/r8release/Engine/Source/Runtime/D3D12RHI/Private/D3D12Resources.cpp:507 with error DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_REMOVED with Reason: DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_HUNG"
 
Rev. Night said:
The game is pretty, but it crashes practically every session.

"LowLevelFatalError [File:Unknown] [Line: 686] hr failed at D:/depot/r8branches/r8release/Engine/Source/Runtime/D3D12RHI/Private/D3D12Resources.cpp:507 with error DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_REMOVED with Reason: DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_HUNG"
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Turn off Ray Tracing…
They botched that implementation too.

Try uninstalling and reinstalling your drivers though it can also be a bad update.

That error is all over the UE4 developer forums and almost always something they did. But every once and a while they say bad drivers did it.
 
Rev. Night said:
The game is pretty, but it crashes practically every session.

"LowLevelFatalError [File:Unknown] [Line: 686] hr failed at D:/depot/r8branches/r8release/Engine/Source/Runtime/D3D12RHI/Private/D3D12Resources.cpp:507 with error DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_REMOVED with Reason: DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_HUNG"
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I don’t have this game but my past UE experience is that it’s either a driver issue or a bad config option in the game and you need to purge any customization from the settings and start over. In both cases, I expect you’d find an entry in Event Viewer about the video driver being reloaded, that’s typically the reason for the DEVICE_REMOVED: Windows killed and reloaded the driver.
 
Rev. Night said:
The game is pretty, but it crashes practically every session.

"LowLevelFatalError [File:Unknown] [Line: 686] hr failed at D:/depot/r8branches/r8release/Engine/Source/Runtime/D3D12RHI/Private/D3D12Resources.cpp:507 with error DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_REMOVED with Reason: DXGI_ERROR_DEVICE_HUNG"
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I was getting this a lot too. Probably sent in 20 crash reports.

I was playing with Raytracing on, FSR disabled, along with the edits to the settings file I posted previously: https://hardforum.com/threads/jedi-...roblem-for-pc-players.2027423/post-1045637418

I found turning Raytracing off helped a little with crashing on Jedha, but not since more recent patches. I couldn't get thru the final cutscene after the final battle without crashing.

I tried enabling FSR on Quality, and it stabilized all of my cutscene crashes.

The FSR implementation is definitely fucked up. In the initial release of the game (plus any launch day patch) you had to edit the settings as mentioned to get better performance and visual quality. And the FSR wasn't helping frames at all.
One thing you can spot as soon as the game loads to the first menu, to see the issues, is the top of the tower at the jedi temple. If it's flickering, you are going to playing in an unstable game.
You should see two thin antennas at the edges of the topmost point:
1684687719653.png

Time to tweak the settings and stabilize the game, follow the steps to edit the file and set it read only as instructed in the linked post, but Disable Raytracing, and Enable FSR at Quality even if you don't need it.

I will try today with Raytracing On, see if it remains stable. So far it has after an hour. So that might work either way.
Edit: Got to Jedha on my Journey+, the crashes from Raytracing still there. Turn off Raytracing should stabilize it. It gets 60 to 90 fps, but does have occasional stutter.
 
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So you have to enable FSR to avoid crashes? Sounds like this game is still very buggy.
 
This game sucks ass. Played the three hours offered as part of PSN sub. It's so damn linear, broken quests, etc...
 
alxlwson said:
This game sucks ass. Played the three hours offered as part of PSN sub. It's so damn linear, broken quests, etc...
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I'm on the shitty PC port and I've not encountered more than one or two broken quests in the entire game. There were also workarounds for those issues. Finally, it's narrative is linear but you do have the freedom to go wherever you want when you want to for the most part.
 
Dan_D said:
I'm on the shitty PC port and I've not encountered more than one or two broken quests in the entire game. There were also workarounds for those issues. Finally, it's narrative is linear but you do have the freedom to go wherever you want when you want to for the most part.
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I felt like I was playing a ported game on my PS5.
 
alxlwson said:
This game sucks ass. Played the three hours offered as part of PSN sub. It's so damn linear, broken quests, etc...
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Three hours is not enough time to get past the introductory chapters, I wouldn't think. Your first visit to Koboh is quite limited in where you can go, but it opens up a lot once you leave the planet and start to gain more powers.
Dan_D said:
Finally, it's narrative is linear but you do have the freedom to go wherever you want when you want to for the most part.
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Yup, just like the first game.
 
Armenius said:
Three hours is not enough time to get past the introductory chapters, I wouldn't think. Your first visit to Koboh is quite limited in where you can go, but it opens up a lot once you leave the planet and start to gain more powers.

Yup, just like the first game.
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Maybe I'll pick it up if I can find someone that has a disc they don't want.
 
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