Dynamite digital audio workstation; unlimited budget

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stateofjermaine

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Update: Thought I would resurrect this blog, as it looks like I may be asked to build something similar very soon (the next two weeks). I know a lot has changed since I originally posted, but I'm really curious about what new thoughts you all have (esp. regarding Sandy Bridge) for a workstation. Are there any Sandy Bridge dual-socket options? If not, would an i7-2600 work better than a dual socket option? To summarize my old post, we will be using large VST instruments, and processing requirements will be very heavy. Also, it would ideally work as a Hac Pro, so compatible parts would be best. But any suggestions or info would be greatly appreciated.
--

1) What will you be doing with this PC?
This is a very unique build for me. It's for a digital audio workstation, and we will be using virtual instruments and plug-ins pretty much exclusively.
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
Budget is definitely secondary for this build. Within reason, consider the budget unlimited.
3) Where do you live?
Germantown, MD
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. Please be very specific.
This will be a complete scratch build.
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
We will be reusing a wall-mounted 48-inch plasma screen monitor.
6) Will you be overclocking?
Not sure. I don't mind overclocking if it will be beneficial. Open to recommendations on this.
7) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?
48" plasma screen; 1920x1080, I believe. I didn't purchase it, so I don't remember the details.
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
Sometime in the next 3 months, most likely.
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support?
This will be my first DAW build, so I'm not sure. I imagine CrossFire would be wholly unnecessary, though.
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license
Yes.

We have been running our studio on a Mac Pro we purchased in 2007, I believe (I have not been in charge of tech until very recently). It's been hard for me to find the exact specs, but I believe it is a dual-processor system, running a pair of Intel Xeon dual-core chips at 2.66GHz. I suspect they may have been Xeon 3075's or possibly 5150's. That aside, processing power has been a major nuisance in our recording sessions. Fraught with pop-ups and cautions about processing load, we have tried everything to work around the issue, but it is just not happening with our current setup. To give an idea of the processing scope, I believe one of our piano plug-ins utilizes a 200GB sample library. Since Digital Performer seems to be exclusive to Macs, I am not opposed to switching to Pro Tools (we were probably going to do so eventually, anyway). I would love to build a monster rig to finally put these plug-ins in their place.

Thanks in advance!

Updated 12/29/09

Hard|PC
765.98 Intel Xeon E5520 1366 Server Processor [X2]
509.98 6GB Patriot DDR3-1333 ECC Registered RAM [X2]
799.95 1TB Western Digital RE3 Hard Drive [X5]
289.99 Corsair Obsidian 800D Full Tower Case
449.99 SuperMicro Dual LGA 1366 EATX Server Motherboard
239.99 Corsair 1000HX Modular Power Supply
539.00 Intel X25-M 160GB Solid State Disk
31.99 Sony Optiarc 24X DVD/CD Rewritable Drive
109.99 Samsung Blu-ray Combo

169.99 XFX Radeon HD 5770 1GB

SUB 3904.85

Note: It was fun setting up the Mac equivalent on the Apple site. It would now run me a shade over $6000. No SSD, no Blu-ray, and not a reliable brand name in sight.
 
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Three months is a tad too early to start planning a build but I'm bored/lazy so gonna ignore that for now. Just make sure that you repost whatever build you have after this a week before you buy and you should be set.

Quick Prelim build (A modification of a build I did in this thread):
$768 - 2 x Intel Xeon E5520 CPU
$450 - SUPERMICRO MBD-X8DAH+-O Intel 5520 EATX Motherboard
$418 - 2 x Kingston 3 x 2GB DDR3 1333 ECC Registered RAM
$55 - ZOTAC ZT-95TEK2P-FSL GeForce 9500 GT 1GB PCI-E Video Card
$480 - 2 x OCZ Vertex Series OCZSSD2-1VTX60G 2.5" 60GB SATA II MLC Internal SSD (RAID 0)
$120 - Seagate 7200.11 1.5TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$27 - LG Black GH22LS50 DVD Burner
$240 - Corsair 1000HX Modular PSU
$140 - Cooler Master HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP ATX Case
----
Total: $2,698 USD plus tax and shipping

In terms of CPU power, it's gonna be equal to the current Mac Pro dual CPU setup for sale now. But as you can tell, the above setup is still $600 cheaper than the dual-quad Mac Pro but offers 120GB RAID of oh so good SSD performance, twice as much RAM, an additional storage drive, and the possibility of upgrading to the Core i9 six-core CPUs in a year.......oh god, 12 cores....Damn.

Now do you already have Windows 7 Pro 64bit on hand?
 
Danny,

I disagree with your SSD selection. If you're trying to provide a fast working drive, you should at least give him something to handle his entire sample library, so 200GB+. You'll only get 120GB with that setup.

How about two of these instead?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227395

$820 after MIR for 240GB

Or two of these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167017

$1080 for 320GB

It really depends on how much data you need to have available during processing TheQuestian. How much disk space do you typically use when working (tools, samples, etc)?
 
Three months is a tad too early to start planning a build but I'm bored/lazy so gonna ignore that for now. Just make sure that you repost whatever build you have after this a week before you buy and you should be set.
Will do, thanks! Yeah, it might be as far off as three months, but it might also be considerably sooner. A lot depends on luck and income. ;)

Quick Prelim Build (a modification of a build I did in this thread):

$768 - 2 x Intel Xeon E5520 CPU
$450 - SUPERMICRO MBD-X8DAH+-O Intel 5520 EATX Motherboard
$418 - 2 x Kingston 3 x 2GB DDR3 1333 ECC Registered RAM
$55 - ZOTAC ZT-95TEK2P-FSL GeForce 9500 GT 1GB PCI-E Video Card
$480 - 2 x OCZ Vertex Series OCZSSD2-1VTX60G 2.5" 60GB SATA II MLC Internal SSD (RAID 0)
$120 - Seagate 7200.11 1.5TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$27 - LG Black GH22LS50 DVD Burner
$240 - Corsair 1000HX Modular PSU
$140 - Cooler Master HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1-GP ATX Case
----
Total: $2,698 USD
Very cool. I think this will help me tremendously getting my feet wet with dual-processor builds. Bytheway, I wouldn't worry too much about the price point on the baseline Mac Pro. I configured a dual-Xeon (2.66GHz) system with 4TB of storage (no SSD's) and 12GB of RAM, and it came up to a touch over $5800. I think we've got some breathing room. :)

[Note: I'm not sure what 2.66GHz processor they are putting in their dual-processor machine; is it an X5550?]

Also, I have a few questions for you, if it's alright.

1. Is overclocking allowed in these types of builds? I noticed the included Xeons are running at 2.26GHz. I realize they are still quite fast due to their superior architecture, but would faster clock speed provide real benefits for our situation? I don't mind spending more than a baseline Mac Pro costs if I know that we will be getting far superior performance. If overclocking is a no-no, what are your thoughts on the E5540?

2. I realize it's expensive, but coming from a Mac Pro, my partner might turn his nose up at the HAF case, so do you think the Corsair Obsidian would accommodate this build well? It claims to support EATX motherboards in its specs, but I remember you saying that those listings are not to be trusted.

3. Do you think maybe I should consider more storage? 1.5TB is certainly nothing to sneeze at, but as I mentioned, a single instrument (albeit unusually large) took up 200GB. At such a reasonable price, maybe we should consider two or three of these HDD's?

4. The Kingston RAM you suggested is listed as "ECC", and "Registered w/Parity". These things sounds very important, but what is the meaning of these ratings? Heh, and why don't they have pretty colored heatsinks? :(

5. Oh, and why the 9500GT? Just curious.

In terms of CPU power, it's gonna be equal to the current Mac Pro dual CPU setup for sale now. But as you can tell, the above setup is still $600 cheaper than the dual-quad Mac Pro, and offers 120GB RAID of oh-so-good SSD performance, twice as much RAM, an additional storage drive, and the possibility of upgrading to the Core i9 six-core CPUs in a year—oh god, 12 cores—damn.
But I'm not satisfied to equal the current Mac Pro. I wanna bury it! :p

Now, do you already have Windows 7 Pro 64-bit on hand?
That I do. Thanks for your help here, Danny.
 
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if you really want to go batshit with processing power:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813151204
and its riser card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ogle-_-Server+-+Accessories-_-TYAN-_-13151206

and here's where the Mac Pro looks cheap:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103663
eight if you please (should come back in stock)

you'll also need eight HSFs
the 128GB of RAM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139084 (32 if you please)
and at least 1500W of PSU power, if not more

oh, and we haven't even gotten to hard disks, or other components

we could go ahead and grab eight fairly fancy SSDs (or any other config of drives you'd like, board supports eight)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167024


and then we'll go ahead and throw your ProTools upgrade into the mix:
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=100&navid=84&itemid=4888

and some sort of graphics adapter:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_cx_us.html (if you do video)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...2&cm_re=geforce_9500GT-_-14-500-072-_-Product (if you dont do video)


yes I realize this is like a $40,000+ system
but you said budget is not a factor and you wanted to bury the Mac Pro's processing ability

now, back to the realm of reality, I'd probably get Danny's suggestion or similar

case wise, if the HAF doesn't suit you, Lian-Li and Silverstone both make some very attractive aluminum enclosures
 
LOL. Thanks for the chuckle. Yeah, I guess "within reason" is very subjective terminology, eh?

Case wise, if the HAF doesn't suit you, Lian-Li and Silverstone both make some very attractive aluminum enclosures,
Got any recommendations supporting EATX with nice cable management features?
 
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LOL. Thanks for the chuckle. Yeah, I guess "within reason" is very subjective term, eh?

reasons for that:
A) I was bored
B) I put that 32 core thing together about a year ago when I first saw that Tyan on the market and I've been waiting and biding my time to present it


honestly Danny's suggestion will rock
if you go PT, buying the HD Accel system (part of the reason I linked it, you don't need HD|3 unless you need a mountain of inputs, honestly I doubt you need that level of I/O) will take A LOT of load off of the CPUs (27 DSPs per card....yeah, it can do some math), which should improve things as well (you won't have the thing whining about processing load/time to complete as much, because it'll have the CPUs and the accel cards)

basically, even though there are some ridiculously powerful CPUs out there, having a DSP accelerated solution will make your life a lot nicer, Digidesign aren't the only kids on the block, but they're one of the better options (you could also go SSL or Mackie, but you'll have to provide your own software)

Got any recommendations supporting EATX with nice cable management features?

case wise, I like Lian-Li and Silverstone, something like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112225
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112244
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163060

theres also this very expensive thing:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133049
 
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1) Generally, overclocking isn't enabled with workstation type builds. The E5540 is not worth it IMO since it's only 270MHz faster than the E5520 yet it costs $395 more. That extra 270Mhz will provide, at most, an extra 1% performance. So in terms of CPU power, the E5520 is the best bang for the buck as the higher clocked E55XX CPUs costs siginificantly more money but offers miniscule performance increases.

2) I think the Corsair Obsidian might fit it but I'm not 100% sure.

3) If you want more storage, go for it. Wouldn't hurt.

4) Here's why Wikipedia is awesome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random_access_memory#Errors_and_error_correction

But basically, it makes sure whatever data is RAM will be error free and therefore makes the system more stable.

5) Cheapest card I could find with dual DVI just in case you start using two monitors.
 
Reasons for that:
A) I was bored
B) I put that 32 core thing together about a year ago when I first saw that Tyan on the market and I've been waiting and biding my time to present it.
Heh, awesome.

Honestly, Danny's suggestion will rock.

If you go PT, buying the HD Accel system (part of the reason I linked it, you don't need HD|3 unless you need a mountain of inputs, honestly I doubt you need that level of I/O) will take A LOT of load off of the CPU's (27 DSPs per card . . . yeah, it can do some math), which should improve things, as well (you won't have the thing whining about processing load/time to complete as much, because it'll have the CPU's and the Accel cards).

Basically, even though there are some ridiculously powerful CPU's out there, having a DSP accelerated solution will make your life a lot nicer; Digidesign aren't the only kids on the block, but they're one of the better options (you could also go SSL or Mackie, but you'll have to provide your own software).
Huge thanks for this. Very good info. :D

I do like the looks of that second one very much. Very elegant, and looks to have nice cabling accommodations.
 
1) Generally, overclocking isn't enabled with workstation type builds. The E5540 is not worth it IMO since it's only 270MHz faster than the E5520 yet it costs $395 more. That extra 270Mhz will provide, at most, an extra 1% performance. So in terms of CPU power, the E5520 is the best bang for the buck as the higher clocked E55XX CPUs costs significantly more money but offers miniscule performance increases.
Heh, should've known. Typical incremental performance gains and massive price jumps. So the X5550's (a $1700 upgrade on the Apple site) would be essentially a waste of money, in your opinion? And since I'm pretty unfamiliar with Xeon processors, what type of performance might I expect from a single E5520? Core i5-level or so?

3) If you want more storage, go for it. Wouldn't hurt.
Any reason I shouldn't go with two 2TB Barracudas? Or four 1TB Barracudas? Does any storage configuration make a lot more sense than another?

4) Here's why Wikipedia is awesome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random_access_memory#Errors_and_error_correction

But basically, it makes sure whatever data is RAM will be error free and therefore makes the system more stable.
Heh, thanks. Yeah, I actually did read over that article, but it just made brain hurt. I guess with so many components involved, it's necessary to put extra safeguards in place?

Thanks, again! Awesome as usual.
 
Heh, should've known. Typical incremental performance gains and massive price jumps. So the X5550's (a $1700 upgrade on the Apple site) would be essentially a waste of money, in your opinion? And since I'm pretty unfamiliar with Xeon processors, what type of performance might I expect from a single E5520? Core i5-level or so?

would you accept "enough" as an answer? :p

its a minimal clockbump, and apple makes their profits by charging out the backdoor for nothing (a thousand dollars for 4GB of RAM? two thousand dollars for 200 mhz of clock speed....yeah thats engineering might and magic right there...)

as far as a single 5520, probably doesn't have a Core analog, because of its features and clock

oh, and just as a note the CPUs danny linked do not include coolers (at least according to newegg)



Any reason I shouldn't go with two 2TB Barracudas? Or four 1TB Barracudas? Does any storage configuration make a lot more sense than another?

more disks generally gives you more options for RAID configs, four disks is more versatile than two in that regard, performance wise, you'd probably benefit from more disks, but they'll use more power, take up more space, etc

personally I'd probably go with whatever gives you enough storage that can also run some sort of redundancy (think about it: you want to lose 3-4TB of work?)

if you're dealing with many hundreds of GB of samples plus your applications and OS, thats probably 1TB of space just to run the thing, and you'll probably want another few TB for storage and whatever else, 6-8x 1TB in RAID1 would be the paranoid option, 4-6x 1TB in RAID5 would probably be the more conservative option

also, to get the last blurb of massive computing power out:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117214
theres other options between that and the Xeon's linked
all are ridiculously expensive by themselves
....let alone times two
 
While I am intrigued by this exercise, I think in order to be sure you're slaying the right dragon we need to know more about exactly what was bottlenecking your previous workflow. Were there any well-known problems (documented by musicians on some other hobbyist forum) which you suffered from that you assume would be alleviated by a better machine? Is there any reason to believe that the particular performance problems you had with the Mac software would also exist in Pro Tools? When you say "unlimited budget within reason", it would be nice to know what type of performance we are maximizing. There are tradeoffs not just financially, but between different types of hardware.

The more detail you provide, the better.
 
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Heh, should've known. Typical incremental performance gains and massive price jumps. So the X5550's (a $1700 upgrade on the Apple site) would be essentially a waste of money, in your opinion? And since I'm pretty unfamiliar with Xeon processors, what type of performance might I expect from a single E5520? Core i5-level or so?

Yup total waste of money. The E5520 would provide Core i7 level performance.
QUOTE=TheQuestian;1035087130]
Any reason I shouldn't go with two 2TB Barracudas? Or four 1TB Barracudas? Does any storage configuration make a lot more sense than another?[/QUOTE]
I should answer this question when I'm a bit more rested and sober :)

But off the top of my head, can't think of any reason besides costs and the old adage "all your eggs in one baskey" to not go with 2TB Barracudas.
QUOTE=TheQuestian;1035087130]
Heh, thanks. Yeah, I actually did read over that article, but it just made brain hurt. I guess with so many components involved, it's necessary to put extra safeguards in place?
[/QUOTE]

Yes
 
While I am intrigued by this exercise, I think in order to be sure you're slaying the right dragon we need to know more about exactly what was bottlenecking your previous workflow. Were there any well-known problems (documented by musicians on some other hobbyist forum) which you suffered from that you assume would be alleviated by a better machine? Is there any reason to believe that the particular performance problems you had with the Mac software would also exist in Pro Tools? When you say "unlimited budget within reason", it would be nice to know what type of performance we are maximizing. There are tradeoffs not just financially, but between different types of hardware.

The more detail you provide, the better.
Heh, I'm intrigued by it, too! :D

To answer your question, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, but I'll try to give an answer. The problem we experience using our current rig is an intermittent pop-up (usually while tracking or playing back a particularly large virtual instrument or two . . . or three) informing us that we need to stop playback due to the processing load. The system jumps and hiccups until we stop the track. If the offending plug-in is deactivated or removed from the session, the error messages stop. The problem is that we are constantly purchasing more demanding plug-ins and virtual instruments (most recently the 200GB piano library) and it is not practical to run them one at a time or not at all.

I do believe it is a case of Crysis Syndrome. The software is winning. ;)
 
Would you accept "enough" as an answer? :p
Oh, I suppose. :)

Oh, and just as a note the CPUs Danny linked do not include coolers (at least according to Newegg).
I did notice that. So, is it just a standard heatsink deal? Get a pair of Ultra 120's or Hyper 212's or something like that? I guess twin Corsair H50's is out of the question. Are there special heatsinks for dual-processor setups?

Personally I'd probably go with whatever gives you enough storage that can also run some sort of redundancy—think about it—you want to lose 3-4TB of work?

If you're dealing with many hundreds of GB of samples plus your applications and OS, that's probably 1TB of space just to run the thing, and you'll probably want another few TB for storage and whatever else. 6-8 1TB in RAID1 would be the paranoid option, 4-6 1TB in RAID5 would probably be the more conservative option.
I've never attempted a RAID setup. Does the motherboard Danny listed come equipped for RAID (1 or 5)? If so, is it just a BIOS thing, or do I need additional hardware?

Also, to get the last blurb of massive computing power out:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117214
There're other options between that and the Xeon's linked. All are ridiculously expensive by themselves . . . let alone times two.
Heh, yeah, I did see those. I assumed it was the standard "Extreme Edition" business. They are fun to watch in benchmarks, though!
 
Heh, I'm intrigued by it, too! :D

To answer your question, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, but I'll try to give an answer. The problem we experience using our current rig is an intermittent pop-up (usually while tracking or playing back a particularly large virtual instrument or two . . . or three) informing us that we need to stop playback due to the processing load. The system jumps and hiccups until we stop the track. If the offending plug-in is deactivated or removed from the session, the error messages stop. The problem is that we are constantly purchasing more demanding plug-ins and virtual instruments (most recently the 200GB piano library) and it is not practical to run them one at a time or not at all.

I do believe it is a case of Crysis Syndrome. The software is winning. ;)

I'd mostly agree with this
you pretty much need more compute power, be it in form of a ton of DSPs to accelerate things (Mackie, Avid/DD, SSL, etc) or clustering computers to accelerate things (Apogee, Euphonix, etc)

as far as the RAID thing, the board does RAID 0/1/5/10 from newegg (any of those modes, basically)
should be a BIOS setting, or something that you load into from the BIOS/during boot

--EDIT FOR MADNESS--
ok, after reading more about this Apogee setup, you might wanna take a peek
for a few reasons:

A) you already have Digital Performer
B) you already own one Mac Pro (which was/is a considerable investment by itself)
C) you need more compute power to run more "stuff"
D) you'd still be able to make use of your current Mac Pro + new hardware

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-system.php?section=features
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-system.php?section=compatibility
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-system.php?section=sbus

pricing wise, it'd be more expensive though:
2x Symphony cards ~$2k ($995/ea from Sweetwater)
whatever Symphony front end hardware $2000-$5000 (whatever you want/need there)
Mac Pro 8core - $3500-$7500

but, it might be worth considering if it works into your budget

one thing I'd caution:
the above is like the first step towards the bigs, where you get into stuff like this:
http://www.euphonix.com/pro/post/news.php?id=45
 
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--EDIT FOR MADNESS--
OK, after reading more about this Apogee setup, you might wanna take a peek
for a few reasons:

A) You already have Digital Performer
B) You already own one Mac Pro (which was/is a considerable investment by itself)
C) You need more compute power to run more "stuff"
D) You'd still be able to make use of your current Mac Pro + new hardware

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-system.php?section=features
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-system.php?section=compatibility
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/symphony-system.php?section=sbus

Pricing wise, it'd be more expensive though:
2x Symphony cards: $2000
Whatever Symphony front-end hardware: $2000 - $5000
Mac Pro 8-core: $3500 - $7500

But, it might be worth considering if it works into your budget.
Interesting! May not be the route we go right now, but definitely cool.

One thing I'd caution:
The above is like the first step towards the bigs, where you get into stuff like this:
http://www.euphonix.com/pro/post/news.php?id=45
Sweet Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
 
Interesting! May not be the route we go right now, but definitely cool.


Sweet Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

yeah, theres really an unlimited number of ways to go once you get "out of the box", and it sounds like your processing and compute needs are right on the border between what a single workstation can do, and where you need to start getting exotic

honestly given that budget probably matters here (I likely wouldn't be too far off in saying that while you do this professionally, and can afford the price of a new workstation, you still gotta eat next month), I'd probably go with the DIY DAW solution danny built, the Mac can run Windows or OS X, and still find a use in the studio, and away you go

audio hardware wise, PT sounds like where you're going, but there are always other options (Mackie would probably be my second choice)
 
Hard|PC
765.98 Intel Xeon E5520 1366 Server Processor [X2]
509.98 6GB Patriot DDR3-1333 ECC Registered RAM [X2]
449.95 1TB Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 Hard Drive [X5]
289.99 Corsair Obsidian 800D Full Tower Case
449.99 SuperMicro Dual LGA 1366 EATX Server Motherboard
239.99 Corsair 1000HX Modular Power Supply
539.00 Intel X25-M 160GB Solid State Disk
31.99 Sony Optiarc 24X DVD/CD Rewritable Drive
109.99 Samsung Blu-ray Combo


SUB 3376.86
HARD|PC TOTAL 3414.56

Mac Pro 8-Core
2.26GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [X2]
6GB X-Brand DDR3-1066 ECC RAM
640GB X-Brand 7200 RPM Hard Drive
NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 Video Card
X-Brand CD/DVD SuperDrive
X-Brand Power Supply
Apple Mouse
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad


SUB 3299.00 + Free Shipping!
MAC PRO TOTAL 3299.00
 
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Why 3 HDs? And do you really need Blu-ray?
Hmm, I dunno. Are you recommending more? Here's the deal with the Blu-ray. We will use a second (possibly third) drive for making copies, anyway, so the extra $50 or so for Blu-ray is no big deal to me.
 
There is no "recommending more" storage in putting together a performance machine. We don't know how much you need. Storage is cheap - if you're working with simple NTFS partitions rather than some type of complex RAID scenario just buy as many as you need. It will perform the same regardless.

High-performance storage is not cheap, and various types of SSDs or RAMdisk, if they're big enough for your specific problem, could potentially give you a thousandfold or millionfold increase in certain benchmarks over working with a hard drive - far more than the 100-200% increase in other benchmarks you might see in buying a new processor. Other benchmarks could potentially be worse than a HDD, with the wrong type of SSD or something inadequate-sized for your purposes. That's why I was asking for details on how your sample libraries and plugins work. If we're putting together a general-purpose machine that can take any plugin you throw at it... well, you'll probably always be able to configure things to suck more resources than you have, and the sky's the limit on budget.

How much disk are you going to need for everything you've worked with so far, and everything you expect to add to your setup? Is it particularly latency, IO per second, or transfer-rate intensive? Do you need some type of hardware DSPs that function well with your app? How many threads does your app use? How much memory does it use normally? etc etc etc

The reason he asked "Why 3" is likely because a pair of 1.5tb drives will work just as well.

I'll defer to people more experienced with DAWs, but just understand that the more detail you can provide, the better they'll know what you should use.

Some links that might be helpful:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/
http://www.hackint0sh.org/f133/70396.htm
 
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actually the reason I questioned three drives is because of RAID implementations, I would never suggest less disks in a mission critical scenario

I would suggest four or more disks, so that RAID5 could be used for decent integrity
 
Actually, the reason I questioned three drives is because of RAID implementations, I would never suggest less disks in a mission critical scenario.

I would suggest four or more disks, so that RAID5 could be used for decent integrity.
That is what I suspected. I'll have to check how many disks are hot-swappable in the Obsidian case, but I don't think four or five HD's will be a problem. I also need to do my homework on RAID5 arrays. I know (generally speaking) how they protect your data, but I don't know how to go about salvaging the protected files when something does go awry. Does anything else stand out?
 
I'll defer to people more experienced with DAWs, but just understand that the more detail you can provide, the better they'll know what you should use.
Thanks for the input, Squalish. I gave as much a real-world scenario as possible in the hopes that DAW-experienced users could get a feel for the situation. Aside from reading errors and pop-ups I don't have much more knowledge to go on, regarding the actual inner-workings of the platform. It seems obobski and others have a pretty good handle on the problem, though.
 
That is what I suspected. I'll have to check how many disks are hot-swappable in the Obsidian case, but I don't think four or five HD's will be a problem. I also need to do my homework on RAID5 arrays. I know (generally speaking) how they protect your data, but I don't know how to go about salvaging the protected files when something does go awry. Does anything else stand out?

Well first and foremost: RAID IS NOT BACKUP. It only increases uptime of the data in case of hard drive failure. So make sure that you have your most critical data backed up on another server, NAS, external hard drive, blu-ray discs, offsite, online, etc.

Anyway, there are software out there that has a good chance of recovering data from a RAID array such as GetDataBack.

I would only recommend RAID 5 in this case if you get a separate dedicated RAID controller. The last thing you want on a high performance workstation meant for DAW work is a software RAID 5 taking up CPU power. However RAID 1 and RAID 0 will work just fine using the motherboard's onboard RAID controller.
 
Well first and foremost: RAID IS NOT BACKUP. It only increases uptime of the data in case of hard drive failure. So make sure that you have your most critical data backed up on another server, NAS, external hard drive, blu-ray discs, offsite, online, etc.

Anyway, there are software out there that has a good chance of recovering data from a RAID array such as GetDataBack.

I would only recommend RAID 5 in this case if you get a separate dedicated RAID controller. The last thing you want on a high performance workstation meant for DAW work is a software RAID 5 taking up CPU power. However RAID 1 and RAID 0 will work just fine using the motherboard's onboard RAID controller.

I assumed he probably already had this, since it sounds like he does this commerically
I was just thinking more redundancy/uptime is always better

sorry if that wasn't made clear

danny:
mobo controllers even in the workstation arena are still software based? :eek:
 
danny:
mobo controllers even in the workstation arena are still software based? :eek:

Sadly, yes. The onboard RAID controller of server and workstation class mobos are still software based. There's one or two mobos out there IIRC where an actual true hardware RAID controller was integrated onto the motherboard.
 
Sadly, yes. The onboard RAID controller of server and workstation class mobos are still software based. There's one or two mobos out there IIRC where an actual true hardware RAID controller was integrated onto the motherboard.

wow

here I thought you could just go ahead and use the setup on that supermicro and be just fine, given that you're paying what? $500 for the thing

well, learn something new every day

based on that, might as well add a RAID controller to the BOM *sigh*
 
Sadly, yes. The onboard RAID controller of server and workstation class mobos are still software based. There's one or two mobos out there IIRC where an actual true hardware RAID controller was integrated onto the motherboard.

There are but they are usually castrated feature wise.
 
Well first and foremost: RAID IS NOT BACKUP. It only increases uptime of the data in case of hard drive failure. So make sure that you have your most critical data backed up on another server, NAS, external hard drive, blu-ray discs, offsite, online, etc.

Anyway, there are software out there that has a good chance of recovering data from a RAID array such as GetDataBack.

I would only recommend RAID 5 in this case if you get a separate dedicated RAID controller. The last thing you want on a high performance workstation meant for DAW work is a software RAID 5 taking up CPU power. However RAID 1 and RAID 0 will work just fine using the motherboard's onboard RAID controller.
Heh, I did say I needed to do my homework! ;)

I need to read up on all of the RAID arrays to determine which would be best for us. In your opinion, going the route of a separate dedicated RAID controller, would you opt for RAID 5 over RAID 1 (or another RAID configuration)?
 
Heh, I did say I needed to do my homework! ;)

I need to read up on all of the RAID arrays to determine which would be best for us. In your opinion, going the route of a separate dedicated RAID controller, would you opt for RAID 5 over RAID 1 (or another RAID configuration)?

http://www.acnc.com/raid.html

I'd probably go RAID1 if you don't wanna bother with a discrete controller, although if you're gonna get the controller, go RAID5 or 6, you'll have more usable space and better performance, and its likely to be less of a nightmare if multiple disks die
 
I assumed he probably already had this, since it sounds like he does this commerically. I was just thinking more redundancy/uptime is always better. Sorry if that wasn't made clear.
No fault of yours, obobski. I could have been much more clear about our situation. The transition to more commercial clients is actually one reason for this upgrade. We have not—to this point—really done much commercial work.

Regarding RAID vs. backup, I know I've read posts stating adamantly that RAID is not backup, but it seems to me that a measure of redundancy would help with data protection, would it not? As I said, though, I need to learn a lot more about RAID before making a final decision. It sounds like you would recommend a dedicated controller, yes?
 
Some of you guys are so unimaginative. :p I got lazy and decided to build the "Ultimate" workstation I could just using Newegg. Honestly this isn't quite what I would build but given an unlimited budget, but it would resemble this build somewhat. Some differences from this build would be SAS 6G drives in an external enclosure or some kind of SAN rather than the drive setup shown here. The four X25-E drives shown in the cart below are for RAID 0+1 mainly to give me a larger single volume and some redundancy. This also doesn't factor in monitors, keyboard, mouse, etc. The 42" plasma alone wouldn't cut it for me. I'd have one of those in addition to at least two if not three 30" LCD panels. (Obviously this would require an additional video card.) The NVIDIA card was chosen mainly because AMD doesn't have it's shit together in regard to drivers and professional applications and for video editing, CUDA may be useful as well for the OP's application. I'm not sure as that's not really my area. I know more about video editing workstations than I do audio. (Yes I realize I didn't select any professional quality audio hardware. Yes I know that this is WAY overkill for the OP's needs.)

Highlights:

Dual Xeon E5590 3.33GHz CPUs
72GB of RAM
128GB of redundant storage space for the OS and applications via SSD drives
2.4TB of drive space dedicated for data in SAS drives

DreamMachine.gif


I bet your budget is limited now! :eek:
 
Regarding RAID vs. backup, I know I've read posts stating adamantly that RAID is not backup, but it seems to me that a measure of redundancy would help with data protection, would it not? As I said, though, I need to learn a lot more about RAID before making a final decision. It sounds like you would recommend a dedicated controller, yes?

RAID by itself isn't backup as it doesn't protect against accidental or malacious deletion/corruption/modification of files. However if you have a server/NAS with RAID that just stores copies or backups of your data, then RAID at that point is a form of backup as the files being stored are just copies/backups, not actively accessed files.

So in other words, in your case, say that you do use a RAID 5 array in this workstation to store your files. In that situation, RAID is not backup. However, if you have a seperate server that uses a RAID array to store copies/backups of whatever files are on that workstation's RAID 5 arry, then RAID is a backup of sorts in that case.

As for what RAID type to go for, it depends on your answer to the questions that Squalish asked earlier
How much disk are you going to need for everything you've worked with so far, and everything you expect to add to your setup? Is it particularly latency, IO per second, or transfer-rate intensive?

@ Dan_D
DAMN! :D
 
No fault of yours, obobski. I could have been much more clear about our situation. The transition to more commercial clients is actually one reason for this upgrade. We have not—to this point—really done much commercial work.

Regarding RAID vs. backup, I know I've read posts stating adamantly that RAID is not backup, but it seems to me that a measure of redundancy would help with data protection, would it not? As I said, though, I need to learn a lot more about RAID before making a final decision. It sounds like you would recommend a dedicated controller, yes?

RAID basically means that if you've got a proper array (none of that RAID0/JBOD crap) and a disk dies, it doesn't have to mean its the end of the world, this is useful because even if you've got proper backups (like offsite), you're probably only backing up once a week, or once every few days, mostly due to time/bandwidth constraints (you can't really afford to pay for an internet connection that allows you to backup 20-200GB in real time)

the other reason RAID is not a backup is because if you goof up and destroy the data on one disk, it destroys it on all disks (if you delete a file, its still gone)

basically its to protect data from hardware failure, not to back the data up in the event of something like a fire, a ticked off employee deleting stuff, software corruption, etc (this is where offsite comes into play)

so in one sense, RAID is a backup (for example using RAID at home, you can somewhat argue its a backup because you're likely the only user of your PC and should be trusted to not delete important data, so hardware failure is basically your only issue (in 10+ years, the only thing that's cost me data at home is hardware failure, in that same time I've lost considerable data in the workspace due to poorly managed systems eating my data every time someone decides a new software toy is needed and that everything has to be deleted))

in your scenario, where the machine is being used commercially, I would suggest RAID for a few reasons, first, with a RAID5 or a nested RAID config (like RAID10), you'll have better performance over a single disk, which is useful if you've got 4-10TB of storage and you're actually using most of it, secondly because if you do have a disk die, it doesn't have to be the end of the data it contained, which is huge if that data is important to your business (Which call would you rather make to a client: "Yeah, we had some computer trouble, we'll need an extra day on the project" or "We had some computer trouble, the entire project was lost, we'll need to start over")

I did honestly think that at the level of boards we were talking about, the on-board RAID should have been suitable, although as Danny and Dan have pointed out, that isn't the case (and I have no reason to question anything either of them have said), so yeah, I'd suggest a dedicated controller for your array

I'd also suggest some form of off-site storage (I've always been trained "at least three", meaning at least three copies of the data on different formats at different locations, so for example, your working system with RAID, a second copy on your Mac Pro converted to a NAS in another part of your building/location (or something similar to this, just trying to come up with a use for the Mac), a third copy on DVD or external HD (depends on size, do what makes sense) in a fire safe at home (or multiples at different people's homes), and a fourth copy of everything important stored through some off-site data wharehousing firm that should be trusted to have multiple copies themselves (and should be located in another part of the country/world)

basically with that, you're more or less in the green even if your building burns to the ground or your location experiences something like a volcano or hurricane, as the data is not only copied multiple times near-ish to you, its also held somewhere else remotely, and all you gotta do is download/upload/connect to it

generally the problems that cause data loss are far less dramatic, and it could be something as simple as deleting a file you didn't intend to delete, having a local backup makes sense because you can just go grab that, and fix whatever boo-boo you made, and offsite provides redundancy for those "acts of god" (also can be marketed to your customers, that their data is always safe)
 
No fault of yours, obobski. I could have been much more clear about our situation. The transition to more commercial clients is actually one reason for this upgrade. We have not—to this point—really done much commercial work.

Regarding RAID vs. backup, I know I've read posts stating adamantly that RAID is not backup, but it seems to me that a measure of redundancy would help with data protection, would it not? As I said, though, I need to learn a lot more about RAID before making a final decision. It sounds like you would recommend a dedicated controller, yes?

At home I use RAiD I with a NAS backup/offsitebackup. For your setup I recommend an internal PCI-e RAID5 card, NAS BACKUP(onsite) and offsite backups(online/tapes/blurays…) Storage is cheap so take advantage of it. Lots of bottles neck will creep up when you’re talking 200GB of data, you need to make certain that your OS drive is separate from your RAID setup such as with an expansion card(PCI-e) and these things can get expensive. For the OS I would recommend an SSD 60GB should be perfect for the OS. The RAID setup I would recommend Seagate as they typical carry a 3-5 year warranty and in my experience don’t die often and when they do it’s near the end of warranty.

What software were you thinking of replacing it with for the windows side of things? Is it compatible with Win764bit? Does it support multithreading? What version of Win7 do you have?
 
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I bet your budget is limited now! :eek:

did you not see my page one post? :p

highlights:
32 2.5GHZ Opteron cores
128GB of RAM in 16 channels
27 DSPs dedicated to audio for up to 192 independent tracks of audio
if we need more storage we'll just grab a pair of Magma boxes, one for the PT setup (yeah you could buy the Digidesign branded ones I guess), and one for a slew of RAID controllers to connect to a few backplane boxes (with whatever, 20TB a piece in them)


can I ask, why FX 5800? it'll be idling 99% of the time

just grab an NVS and use that for your multi-head
 
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