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DAN HSLP-48: A powerful sub 50mm heatsink
- Thread starter dondan
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Jonas Mellkvist
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The price was only a fiktive idea. So currently I am not in contact with themYou are right with your pricerange it would be 120€ on Kickstarter.
For me it`s all about the performance so i should do testrun on Nickelplated vs Copper and se how much the difference are in temps.
Is the Copper significent better i should go on that and pay 120 Euro.
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alishakyol
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Make it happend
If this heatsink is targeted for 'general use' rather than just for cases with a low Z-height and a flex riser, then you are now competing with a huge number of existing heatsinks with very similar designs. The AXP-100, NH-L12, Shadow Rock LP, Shuriken, Kozuti, Kodati, and so on.
The heatsink as shown does not appear to hugely differentiate itself from any of these, and does not appear to have have a performance edge from use of full-copper, or from a novel new geometry (e.g. extending over PCIe slot, using parallel fans).
They don't have a GPU in the slot, but they use a hard (PCB) riser (seen here), which causes basically the same problem with CPU cooler compatibility as a GPU does.
The price was only a fiktive idea. So currently I am not in contact with them
Look at the poll:
http://www.strawpoll.me/12392522
Edit: Here I modified the poll so it includes 120$:
http://www.strawpoll.me/12394275
I am sure a vast majority of these SFF enthusiast are willing to pay 120$. It sounds like a very reasonable price that people will pay for the best performance at the most reasonable price. Just looking at the responses in this thread and the poll results about 2 people are willing to settle for the 60$ and more than 23 are willing to invest in the best performance at 120$ which is a reasonable price. If people wanted a small improvement over already existing coolers they would rather spend on the LP53 or other market competitors that are much cheaper. By the time this cooler is released on kickstarted and backed by the community the Rysen line up will be out and people will want to add high performing 6 core chips to their small cases. They need a solid solution, 120$ sounds reasonable. Again look at the poll.
People didn't just buy it for its small size alone. They could have gotten other existing mini-itx solutions that are smaller. They bought it because it was the only case that could fit a full build like you would have in a larger tower. Same will happen with the cooler, people will buy it because is a high quality cooler that can do some above average cooling.
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Basically copper is better at conducting heat, and aluminum is better at radiating heat. which is why you'll have copper base blocks, and heat pipes, to move the heat to the fins, which are usually aluminum.
Why should I reduce cooling performance to support one motherboard?
In the next year with the Z370 Asus will have a new idea how make their high end board incompatible.
Why not buying a board like the ASRock Fatal1ty Z270 Gaming-ITX/ac, Gigabyte GA-Z270N-WIFI or MSI Z270I Gaming Pro Carbon AC if you need a board that is only expansive and will give you not a single MHZ more in OC.
If you select the Strix because of the second M.2 slot, in the future there will be more boards with that feature.
The last option is removing the heatsink of the Strix and using something like this: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51j-iKDqj9L.jpg
It is not always about the "more MHZ". It can be about features and compatibility. It can even be about aesthetics for some.
You can chose to not support this or whatever motherboard you want but you don't need to purposely be dense about it.
I can give you an example, although now most motherboards seem to be okay with out of the box compatibility with Linux it wasn't always the case and coincidently ASUS-made motherboards used to be one of the best, if not the best, in this regard. (I will use Linux extensively on my system on the case you designed.)
You wouldn't say that if the motherboard you use caused problems with the cooler.
If other manufacturers end up using the same design as ASUS in their next motherboards you will end with no one to buy your cooler.
I wanted your case for its size but I also bought the premise that cooling would be good and efficient.
All the recent data suggest a different story and I am not even going to talk about the noise issue.
I discovered your project very close to the start of the kickstart campaign and so too late to give input about the case. Nonetheless I was under the impression that maybe the 50mm tolerance for cpu coolers was a bad compromise.
I still bought it anyway so I don't have anything to criticise about it. If I am not happy I can buy another case.
You can do the math yourself but you can achieve a much greater area expanding the cooler in the pci-e direction than 9-15mm in the I/O direction.
Of course all of this is your choice, you can do whatever you want and everyone can chose to like and buy it or not.
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MOQ is typically at least 1000 though, and you can't really use the results of an informal poll of a couple dozen people on a forum for enthusiasts as a reliable indicator for what people more generally would pay. That said, the A4 did get something like 2k+ buyers, even at its quite high price, so even if only a fraction are interested (plus some Sentry owners), it could still be viable. The thing is, while it might be better, is it going to be enough better for people to justify the extra cost, especially if they've already got a "good enough" cooler?
There's a saying in the car world: "there's no replacement for displacement;" meaning, a bigger engine is always going to be able to have a greater potential to develop horsepower than a smaller one, turbochargers and other gadgets notwithstanding. The same is true here: there's no replacement for a big heatsink. Expecting small coolers to be anywhere near the performance of a cooler three times the size, mass, and surface area is just magical thinking. If you want a system that runs cool and quiet with a small cooler, you need to appropriately size your thermal load - i.e., don't go for the hot "K" chips.
Okay, and what do you suggest we use as reference? How are we backing the idea that people will purchase the cheaper version? Where is your formal data? Who said that the product will have enough demand simply because its cheap enough? All we are doing here is speculating so do not discredit other people's suggestion simply by saying that its informal when neither you nor anyone has formal data or research of what the real demand is other than people in this forum saying they want it. In fact this thread was not made based on some formal data collected by dondan but rather from the request that we gathered here in this community among the A4 and the Sentry forums, so yes my poll is actually as reliable as any other information we have right now of the demand for this product.
I think it's too speculative at this point to be useful. Like, where are you getting the price point for the aluminum version from? And without knowing what the performance will be like, or how the copper and aluminum versions would compare, how can people make an accurate assessment as to whether it's worth the cost? The best I think you can determine here is some vague indicator for willingness to pay a premium for a potentially best-in-class product. But I'd argue that without knowing how much better "best" is, the data isn't very reliable. Most people, even if they have money to spend, still place some weight on the value proposition of a particular product.
XstreamHard
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If you want to do a Kickstarter you need something unique, a 3 mm less tall version of the AXP-100 with a different fan bracket is not special enough.
dondan
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Thoughts:
What are the keyfeatures of a good heatsink?
1.) A good heat transfer between CPU plate and fins area
2.) A good heat transfer between CPU and CPU plate
3.) A big surface for a good heat exchange
To optimize my current design I will analyze it based on the three tesis:
A good heat transfer between CPU plate and fins area.
A good heat transfer between CPU and CPU plate.
A big surface for a good heat exchange.
- The surface of the current design is:
- What does the other compatitors have?
So you see currently the HSLP-48 will have the smallest surface. To address that problem I will increase the hight to 18,5mm and the length to 130mm. Furthermore I will reduce the fin spacing from 1.88mm to 1.2 mm like the C7 and add more fins. This will increase the surface.
- Here is the new surface calculation:
These changes will increase the surface extremely (64% more surface). But I have to talk with Thermalright about the topic why they have choosen a fin spacing of 1.88mm
What are the keyfeatures of a good heatsink?
1.) A good heat transfer between CPU plate and fins area
2.) A good heat transfer between CPU and CPU plate
3.) A big surface for a good heat exchange
To optimize my current design I will analyze it based on the three tesis:
A good heat transfer between CPU plate and fins area.
We have 6 x 6mm heatpipes I think this is enough
A good heat transfer between CPU and CPU plate.
Thermalright is able to produce direct touch heatpipes. I think this will be a great option for the HSLP-48. Furthermore this will lower the CPU plate from 10,5mm to 6,5mm. So I can add some mm to the thickness of the fins.
A Vapor-Chamber is not necessary because of the tiny surface of the CPU plate. Furthermore I have to pay patent license for it if I have it correct in my mind.
A Vapor-Chamber is not necessary because of the tiny surface of the CPU plate. Furthermore I have to pay patent license for it if I have it correct in my mind.
A big surface for a good heat exchange.
- The surface of the current design is:
normal fins = 17 (H)mm * 121 (L) mm * 42 count = 86394mm²
small fins = 17 (H)mm * 59 (L) mm * 5 count = 5015mm²
5% lost area for heatpipes hole
Total: 86838mm²
small fins = 17 (H)mm * 59 (L) mm * 5 count = 5015mm²
5% lost area for heatpipes hole
Total: 86838mm²
- What does the other compatitors have?
C7 = 27 (H)mm * 97 (L) mm * 57 count * 0.75 (25% lost for heatpipes) = 111962mm²
L9i = 21 (H)mm * 95 (L) mm * 56 count * 0.85 (15% lost for heatpipes) = 94962mm²
L9i = 21 (H)mm * 95 (L) mm * 56 count * 0.85 (15% lost for heatpipes) = 94962mm²
So you see currently the HSLP-48 will have the smallest surface. To address that problem I will increase the hight to 18,5mm and the length to 130mm. Furthermore I will reduce the fin spacing from 1.88mm to 1.2 mm like the C7 and add more fins. This will increase the surface.
- Here is the new surface calculation:
normal fins = 18.5 (H)mm * 130 (L) mm * 60 count = 86394mm²
small fins = 18.5 (H)mm * 59 (L) mm * 5 count = 5015mm²
5% lost area for heatpipes hole
Total: 142269mm²
small fins = 18.5 (H)mm * 59 (L) mm * 5 count = 5015mm²
5% lost area for heatpipes hole
Total: 142269mm²
These changes will increase the surface extremely (64% more surface). But I have to talk with Thermalright about the topic why they have choosen a fin spacing of 1.88mm
XstreamHard
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Thermalright traditionally have a pretty big fin spacing on a lot of their products. On the tower coolers this is mostly so they can be semi-passive I think in general they are more optimized for low pressure fans. If you really want to optimize the cooler there is no going a round a proper CFD study.
illram
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An easy way to add fins is get rid of the gap and make it fasten via the back of the mobo... Just sayin'
Imagine this:
DAN COOLER 1000 XXX because a cooler like this would literally be porn
~1000 gram of full copper awesomeness
DUAL Noctua NF-A9x14 (low noise because the fans are under the heatsink)
6 heatpipes for awesome coolingpower and strength
Most beautiful SFF cpu cooler ever made
It has been done before so we know it's possible (almost, the fans was above but we'll ignore that):
Cons:
Would probably be pretty expensive.
Very specific to this case and cases with similar design or no GPU.
Drawing of what I imagine the cooler could look like.
Let me know how you like the idea here:
https://strawpoll.com/bbda3a6
DAN COOLER 1000 XXX because a cooler like this would literally be porn
~1000 gram of full copper awesomeness
DUAL Noctua NF-A9x14 (low noise because the fans are under the heatsink)
6 heatpipes for awesome coolingpower and strength
Most beautiful SFF cpu cooler ever made
It has been done before so we know it's possible (almost, the fans was above but we'll ignore that):
Cons:
Would probably be pretty expensive.
Very specific to this case and cases with similar design or no GPU.
Drawing of what I imagine the cooler could look like.
Let me know how you like the idea here:
https://strawpoll.com/bbda3a6
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It needs vapour chamber to spread heat better.
http://celsiainc.com/blog-should-i-use-heat-pipes-or-vapor-chambers/
vapour chamber can be made with heatpipe like construction coolermaster has done some (not lowprofile).
http://celsiainc.com/blog-should-i-use-heat-pipes-or-vapor-chambers/
vapour chamber can be made with heatpipe like construction coolermaster has done some (not lowprofile).
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You would in all likelihood risk damage to the heatpipes (copper is rather soft) if they were to support all that weight. Thermalright and other manufacturers even put in supports for much less weight/surface area.
Imagine this:
DAN COOLER 1000 XXX because a cooler like this would literally be porn
~1000 gram of full copper awesomeness
DUAL Noctua NF-A9x14 (low noise because the fans are under the heatsink)
6 heatpipes for awesome coolingpower and strength
Most beautiful SFF cpu cooler ever made
It has been done before so we know it's possible (almost, the fans was above but we'll ignore that):
Cons:
Would probably be pretty expensive.
Very specific to this case and cases with similar design or no GPU.
Drawing of what I imagine the cooler could look like.
Let me know how you like the idea here:
https://strawpoll.com/bbda3a6
THIS! THIS! THIS!!!!! DONDAN DON'T USE YOUR LOGIC, LET YOURSELF FEEL THE EXCITEMENT!
Nice finding the deepcool v6000 StrawKite . I was looking at it yesterday and was wondering if we could just use it as is.
XstreamHard
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I suggested in the other thread to use the ATX mounting screw holes next to the PCIe slot as additional support points with kind of a bridge like bracket over the slot.
Boil
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I also think a quality vapor chamber heat sink would be the way to go…
I can think of a few reasons that design won't work (in the A4, at least):Imagine this:
DAN COOLER 1000 XXX because a cooler like this would literally be porn
~1000 gram of full copper awesomeness
DUAL Noctua NF-A9x14 (low noise because the fans are under the heatsink)
6 heatpipes for awesome coolingpower and strength
Most beautiful SFF cpu cooler ever made
It has been done before so we know it's possible (almost, the fans was above but we'll ignore that):
Cons:
Would probably be pretty expensive.
Very specific to this case and cases with similar design or no GPU.
Drawing of what I imagine the cooler could look like.
Let me know how you like the idea here:
https://strawpoll.com/bbda3a6
- The heatpipes and/or fans would get into the motherboard component height zone. For example, the VRM heatsink on the ASUS Strix mini-ITX board would probably be in the way.
- It's too long for the case. 2x92mm is 184mm of fans, plus the heatpipes at the ends. There's no way that's going to fit inside the A4, with an external height of only 200mm. Even if it could be made to (just barely) fit, installing it would likely be near impossible.
- It would practically require a very specific and precise CPU socket location. Any boards with the socket in a different place - even off by just a few mm - likely would be incompatible.
- The vents on the side panel would only cover 120-130mm(?) of the 184mm total height of the fans. That means blocking some 30% of each fan.
A vapor chamber with heatpipe like construction is a heatpipe. They're just differently structured versions of the same thing.
The Cooler Master heatsink you refer to (the V8 GTS I believe) uses a small vapor chamber on the base, with regular heatpipes running up to the fins like a typical tower heatsink. I'd be surprised, honestly, if that particular construction imparts any real-world benefit. IMO it's more likely just for marketing purposes.
My 1000 gram Noctua NH-C14S says your wrong. Copper is plenty strong.
Static properties are not comparable with the NH-C14S. Most of the weight rests on top of the base block whereas your suggestion would have an extreme angular pull to deal with. But I am admittedly not an expert on metal properties, just reading reports of people kinking their heatpipes for various reasons.
Yeah, I'm no expert either. Maybe it's the nickel plating helping the NH-C14S haha.
We're here because you are looking for the best of the best of the best, sir!
The thing is that what you think does not in anyway become more official or more reliable because you think so. Once again, if you have no data, no research to prove that the demand is for the cheapest version is larger how can you say so certainly that my suggestion is speculative? Your suggestion that a cheaper option will be best is just as speculative as mine. I am using the price point from what dondan provided in the comments, read all dondan's comments if you want to find out more. Copper has higher thermal conductivity than aluminum. Will that alone make it significantly better than aluminum? No but with the proper design it will. However, the source of the discussion was never whether the performance with copper will be much better for the same design that was up to dondan to find out. The discussion is on the topic of what price range the product should be targeting and for that there is no currently existing data as to what price range has the highest demand. You assume that the existing options are the most viable for the market as if something had already prove this and that more expensive suggestions will keep customers away without having any data to back that statement. Therefore my poll is not too speculative because there is no "non-speculative" standard set, you can't just call something speculative without having a standard, you are assuming that the 30-60$ price rage is not speculative without any information to back that up.
dondan
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Here are some points why it will not work:
1. If you mount this heatsink on the board you will be not able to mount it in the A4-SFX while the SFX PSU installed the gab is only 175mm but you need 190mm for this heatsink.
2. You will be not able to mount the riser, because the fan will block the port
3. You will be not able to use SATA ports that are under the heatsink
4. It will not fit on the Strix because the heatpipe will collide with the top phase heatsink, if you bend it in that way that it will fit you will be unable to mount the second fan between heatpipe and fins.
5. If you make the heatsink lower and try to mount the fans on top you will come close to the side panel
6. For example on the Strix it will hide the 8pin 12V PSU port
7. On some boards the socket is more centered, then the heatsink will collide with the case and will not fit
8. It will not fit on the X99E-ITX
9. Some board has a vertical mounted bios batteries, the battery will collide with the heatsink
10. The old Asus Z170 Impact will not fit
11. Some boards have vertical mount WiFi Cards they will not fit
The only way a layout like this will fit is mounting the fans on top and reduce the length to support boards with a centered socket.
dondan
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There aren't any ways a double 92mm fan heatsink will fit. I thought about it many times, but I can't see a solution. If you have a idea let me know.
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Your C14S has some extra support as well, it's just not obvious, as it looks like a seventh heatpipe.
dondan
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Noctua: Thank you for joining the party. For the distribution quesstion of the fan clips I can't help you, because I am located in Germany and the shipping costs to US will be high too.
I see you found my thread for the developing of a special heatsink under 50mm. Maybe Noctua is interested in to work with me on that topic. The current design is based on a Thermalright heatsink because Thermalright has a 100mm fan that will perfectly use the space between I/O area and RAM. But maybe you can design a 100mm thin fan with 82mm mount points too.
I see you found my thread for the developing of a special heatsink under 50mm. Maybe Noctua is interested in to work with me on that topic. The current design is based on a Thermalright heatsink because Thermalright has a 100mm fan that will perfectly use the space between I/O area and RAM. But maybe you can design a 100mm thin fan with 82mm mount points too.
You're not hearing what I'm saying. You're asking people what they'll pay for a product that has no hard specs or price. How can people make an accurate judgement based on price and specs that can only really be guessed at at this point? Once dondan nails down those specifics a bit more, or at least get a better estimate, then do a poll. Then it might actually tell you something worthwhile.
We could for sure design such a fan but I don't think people would like to wait 1-2 years for it to be ready.
Seriously though, I don't see us going for such a fan anytime soon, as it is an extreme niche size where it is questionable if we would ever even earn the development costs. It was a bit easier with the A9x14, as it can be used easily on coolers that have to be inside the Intel and AMD keep-out zones, which is not the case with a 100mm fan.
Regarding a cooler, please send me a PM with your contact address and I'll get in touch with you.
I can't promise anything but we can at least take a look at the topic.
I didn't know you are from Germany but it might make things a bit easier.
dondan
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As i mention in my PM, I like to use Noctua as OEM so I will pay for everything
I think you accidentally copied the first fin area to the new calculation (but the total area seem to be correct)
Also, I assume that the AM4 socket will be supported?
Also, I assume that the AM4 socket will be supported?