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Wait did anyone actually believe all that patriotic talk over at Intel ?

It was always about getting big handouts and Gov contracts.
They, like any other American company, would love to work out of their own country. Unfortunately the west has created a worker that over believes there own value.

If patriotic means eating excessive cost and thus creating uncompetitive products, cost wise, that's pretty silly.
 
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So the U.S taxpayers 'pony' up and the bulk of the revenue goes into a few well-oiled pockets.
Lovely!...we should be raw by now. We keep getting screwed.
I sure this will get done in some backroom deal at some point.
A politician will get rich and this will happen. It always does.
....and why the heck is TSMC and Samsung demanding these?
Korea and Taiwan will benefit much, much more from operation here than any American city ever will.
Sure!.. they will undoubtedly have to employ some workers but the return from product sales will far surpass the salaries.
That money goes elsewhere to improve those nations...not us.
 
They, like any other American company, would love to work out of their own country. Unfortunately the west has created a worker that over believes there own value.

If patriotic means eating excessive cost and thus creating uncompetitive products, cost wise, that's pretty silly.
The entire workers want to much narrative... is exactly that.
Why do people think Intels Euro fab is in Ireland ? Is it because the people of Leixlip will work for slave wages ?? Or is it more because its one of the biggest tax havens in the west...
https://www.irishtimes.com/business...centives-as-new-leixlip-plant-opens-1.1144884

Italy will be getting a fab... and all it will cost them is tax payer provided wage subsidies, utility deals... corp tax forgiveness. Also in the case of Italy they are going to foot a big chunk of the initial investment. That's right Italy is going to PAY for a massive chunk of Intels Italian fab. Without a doubt Italian tax payers won't really understand they built Intel a Fab until its far to late to ask any real questions.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/23/italy-woos-intel-over-multibillion-euro-chip-plant-sources.html

Intel is also going to build a Fab in Germany..... all they want is 10 billion in subsidies first.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-seeks-dollar97-billion-subsidies-for-european-fab

We all know diversifying fab locations is good for business. Intel however is not convinced of that and all the patriotic talk is just that talk. They are more then willing to build western fabs as long as Tax payers foot the bill. I guess as long as we are all stupid enough to allow our governments to make billions of dollars in investments in private companies without taking a stake... nothing is going to change. Who can blame Intel for taking free money.... if they do manage to make a come back and become the big chip player again in 5 or 6 years, it will be at ALL our expenses make no mistake. Intel screwed up, and now they are going to get a massive public bail out. The US will cave as well... and I fully expect Intel will be getting billions in free money, tax credits, and likely so cheap its free electricity and water ect.
 
They, like any other American company, would love to work out of their own country. Unfortunately the west has created a worker that over believes there own value.

If patriotic means eating excessive cost and thus creating uncompetitive products, cost wise, that's pretty silly.

It's more like they take advantage of abusive conditions in third world authoritarian countries to lower their costs and boost income when they go abroad.

American workers expectations are not crazy.

Remember you used to be able to raise a family of 2.4 or whatever kids, buy a home, own two basic American cars, get a guaranteed pension, and enjoy all other aspects of the typical middle class experience on one income requiring nothing but a high school education and getting a union job in a factory.

Today a single income from an hourly factory job is more likely to put you in an income class close to poverty levels.

Wr should be requiring ANY company that wants to sell their products in the U.S. to make sure that they themselves and their entire supply chain pay an income to all of their employees that results in a traditional middle class American standard of living regardless of where they are located in the world.

I'd argue it is OK to take advantage of the cost of living being lower in other countries in order to get some savings, but taking advantage of a lack of worker protections and paying slave wages ought to be illegal no matter where in the world you hire your employees.

From that perspective we all have blood on our hands when we buy products made in these hellholes. Ban them from the U.S. market if they do.

Us enjoying the products we use and enjoy here should not be dependent on abusing workers across the planet.
 
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So here's my feeling with chip fabs, first how about you build them where the one thing they use a lot of is plentiful, namely water don't build them in the middle of Arizona, or in perpetual drought stricken California, don't give me this "availability of workers" garbage, or any other excuses. Second, make sure any toxic wastes are handled properly, no "subsidies" on allowing them to dump without impunity. Lastly, give them whatever tax breaks they fricking want, the thing is if they don't build a fab in the US then they aren't going to pay ANY taxes at all anyways, having the fab capability in our country is much more valuable than any tax revenue they may generate from it.
 
Second, make sure any toxic wastes are handled properly, no "subsidies" on allowing them to dump without impunity.

Hate to break it to you but unless you're ready to spend like $1700 for a 6-Core then some glowing green runoff is going to need to end up in a river or two, probably next to a school. It's just business.
 
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Hate to break it to you but unless you're ready to spend like $1700 for a 6-Core then some glowing green runoff is going to need to end up in a river or two, probably next to a school. It's just business.
Then fuck their business, they can do it in countries that are more than happy to pollute their resources, those jobs are not worth it.
 
I once had a nightmare that intel fully pulled out of oregon, specifically my hometown. It left oregon in shambles as it once depended on that tax revenue. (not that it isn't close to shambles currently) But It made things much, MUCH worse since the fallout from that loss affected all sectors in this area.

It sounds like this might come true.
 
Hate to break it to you but unless you're ready to spend like $1700 for a 6-Core then some glowing green runoff is going to need to end up in a river or two, probably next to a school.
Some how the USA did this in the 1950s through the 1980s, what changed?
Oh right, Socialism, Corporatism, and other leftisms ballooned in the last 30 years.

You know, it's almost like leftist policies, laws, and regulations don't work... :whistle:

It's just business.
No, it's just evil.
 
Intel, Samsung, and TSMC ... screw 'em, and especially TSMC ... let China take over Taiwan
 
Intel has and is continuing to invest 10s of billions just on the fabs in the US. Mod 3 in Hillsboro Oregon is about to be online... that isn't hinging off of any extra tax credit. They have already started work on more fabs (Fab 52 and 62 are being built now.) Intel is pushing contractors/etc to get them done before TSMC's new fab in AZ. Of course Intel is trying to get as much cash back for their investment, especially given how much Samsung/TSMC get from their governments. But leaving the US, nah.

(And how is this any different from any other big company that asks local goverments for tax incentives to move their headquarters, etc.)
 
For TSMC that plant is going to be what $35B when that’s all done, if they take half their profits every year to pay that off in what 8 years??? ok sounds totally reasonable but all their investors see is we’re going to be half as profitable for the better part of the next decade. Would cause their stocks to hurt for sure, so you better believe they are gonna want some government funds to soften that. The US wants those chips being made stare side for lots of security and blah blah blah reasons, they just want to make them where it’s cheap and easy, India, China, the Philippines, Singapore, Mexico, all perfectly viable options for their new fab. US has to sweeten the deal, that’s all their is to it.
 
For TSMC that plant is going to be what $35B when that’s all done, if they take half their profits every year to pay that off in what 8 years??? ok sounds totally reasonable but all their investors see is we’re going to be half as profitable for the better part of the next decade. Would cause their stocks to hurt for sure, so you better believe they are gonna want some government funds to soften that. The US wants those chips being made stare side for lots of security and blah blah blah reasons, they just want to make them where it’s cheap and easy, India, China, the Philippines, Singapore, Mexico, all perfectly viable options for their new fab. US has to sweeten the deal, that’s all their is to it.
Subsidies are great and appropriate for driving strategic industries seen as key to national security and the nations future.

In just about every other case they are a negative distorting the market.

It pits state against state and country against country and becomes a race to the bottom. They really need to be made history.

Rather than play into it as "necessary evil" to compete in the global marketplace we should fight it. Do something like enact a law that prevents any company that accepts a subsidy from any government, local, state or federal in any country in the world unable to sell their product or services in the U.S.

If a company tries to pit two states against eachother saying they will go to whomever gives them the best sweetheart deal, just shut them down completely. For there to be a fair and even playing field, no company should be allowed to seek special exemptions from taxation or other direct subsidies. Everyone needs to play by the same rules.

Take subsidies out of the equation and let nations compete on a level playing field on their merits.
 

Are you at all surprised? They’re doing this because they know it works. Thank the lobbyists who own Congress. They would probably build the factories either way since they are having reliability issues in China now with things like power rationing, but they also know that the US wants chip production for strategic reasons and they know they’re willing to pay. Corporations do this all the time now because they know they’ll get the money, while the government can go back to the voter and pretend they got a “win” for being “job creation” even when those jobs were coming either way. End general corporate welfare and this stuff would stop, just don’t count on that happening.
 
It's more like they take advantage of abusive conditions in third world authoritarian countries to lower their costs and boost income when they go abroad.

American workers expectations are not crazy.

Remember you used to be able to raise a family of 2.4 or whatever kids, buy a home, own two basic American cars, get a guaranteed pension, and enjoy all other aspects of the typical middle class experience on one income requiring nothing but a high school education and getting a union job in a factory.

Today a single income from an hourly factory job is more likely to put you in an income class close to poverty levels.

Wr should be requiring ANY company that wants to sell their products in the U.S. to make sure that they themselves and their entire supply chain pay an income to all of their employees that results in a traditional middle class American standard of living regardless of where they are located in the world.

I'd argue it is OK to take advantage of the cost of living being lower in other countries in order to get some savings, but taking advantage of a lack of worker protections and paying slave wages ought to be illegal no matter where in the world you hire your employees.

From that perspective we all have blood on our hands when we buy products made in these hellholes. Ban them from the U.S. market if they do.

Us enjoying the products we use and enjoy here should not be dependent on abusing workers across the planet.

While this seems correct, there are some additions/factors.

A "basic American car" now has more speakers than the highest home stereo used to have. It has satellite navigation, lane-keeping, etc. It's performance, even for a minivan, exceeds what a muscle-car or high-performance car of that era would be capable of. (0-60 in less than 10 seconds was, at that time, extreme performance.)

American houses did not have central air and rarely, heating.

As expectations of increased comfort have continued to rise, so too has the value of the US Dollar decreased, on purpose, year over year.

And, yes, if you want your domestic GDP to increase, you buy items produced by your domestic manufacturers.
 
Making a quality product or offering a quality service that people want to pay for is not greed.

Thinking that you are entitled to someone else’s money is greed….we call it taxes though.

Every employee in a business pays taxes at multiple levels….but it’s just not enough by some peoples standards.
 
There once was a time in America where companies held a nationalistic belief over everything else.
Those days are long gone.
When you have one of the Worlds largest U.S based chip manufacturers using strong-armed tactics at a time the auto, defense and critical industries need them most, that is a problem.
The other two shouldn't even count, unless there is an iron-clad guarantee of revenue sharing and large-scale employment as part of any incentives.
Why the heck should Americans subsidize any foreign investor without a guaranteed return?
Ever wonder why Seoul and Taipei are so nice and three block away from the U.S Capital the roads are falling apart?
There is your answer.
Their investments pay big dividends and these companies invest it in education and infrastructure at home.
Our greed and stupidity will be our downfall.
 
There once was a time in America where companies held a nationalistic belief over everything else.
News flash... that was most likely PR simply due to the lack of other options. Once globalization became a real thing, the PR from being "Made in America" didn't help their profit margin as much as "hey we can save 80% in labor costs by letting them guys over there build it"
 
Normal negotiation tactic, nothing more.

The plants will get built.
 
India and China were pretty socialist up until the mid 80s. Now they're open for business, and each has four times the population of the USA.

You don't deserve to be part of the 1% ($32k per year) just because you were born in America.

Also chips aren't about labour. Assemblies like cell phones sure. But chips are about toxic waste management.
 
No, it's just evil.

How is it just evil, the last 50 decades have proven if your competitor makes it cheaper and sell it cheaper you are out of business. Being 'good' does not save a company.

If anyone is evil, its the consumer for prioritizing cheap over everything else.
 
From that perspective we all have blood on our hands when we buy products made in these hellholes. Ban them from the U.S. market if they do.
USA has so much blood on it's hands as it is, what's the difference a little more gonna make?
 
Here's the deal.

We stop selling military equipment to Taiwan if you don't build your factories here.
 
Here's the deal.

We stop selling military equipment to Taiwan if you don't build your factories here.
Israel would be more than willing to pick up that slack, The US needs Taiwan to buy their arms from the US not for the revenue but for the message it sends China, if they stop those sales I assure you China will take that as a sign and move in and the US is not ready for that to happen. That would be very much a cutting-off your nose situation.
 
How is it just evil, the last 50 decades have proven if your competitor makes it cheaper and sell it cheaper you are out of business. Being 'good' does not save a company.

If anyone is evil, its the consumer for prioritizing cheap over everything else.
The point was is that polluting rivers with toxic waste, which hurts human beings and animals for the sake of a profit, is evil.
I never mentioned competition.
ftfy
 
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