Currently in production would be the Jonsbo RM1 & RM2.
As much as I Iike those (and the Nova) I am willing to sacrifice a few liters to not cover up the cpu with the psu as the only way to fit an atx psu in the case
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Currently in production would be the Jonsbo RM1 & RM2.
Nothing new. I didn't get a really clear sense of direction from this thread, so I've set it aside for the time being and my attention has shifted over to some mini-ITX concepts. There are still some interesting possibilities there, whereas mATX feels really tapped out in terms of what's possible and what's been done already.any news Necere?
Nothing new. I didn't get a really clear sense of direction from this thread, so I've set it aside for the time being and my attention has shifted over to some mini-ITX concepts. There are still some interesting possibilities there, whereas mATX feels really tapped out in terms of what's possible and what's been done already.
Nothing new. I didn't get a really clear sense of direction from this thread, so I've set it aside for the time being and my attention has shifted over to some mini-ITX concepts. There are still some interesting possibilities there, whereas mATX feels really tapped out in terms of what's possible and what's been done already.
It's a fair point. Smaller mATX cases that are still able to support higher end hardware are vanishingly few, and you're right that a larger case suffers from the problem of not really offering anything that isn't already available. I think in order to really get the size down though, we may have to give up any pretense of watercooling support. Which isn't the worst thing, IMO, but it's going to limit the enthusiast appeal.I like the direction the Nova case is going in. I'd like to see this project become stiff competition for Nova, even if it's not that different internally at the end of the day.
There are so few cases for mATX that offer such small volumes. I'd happily sacrifice some 3.5 inch HDD spaces, optical drives and maintain SFX support, and cooling for high end CPUs. Given the current trend towards smaller builds, it looks likely there will be more powerful SFX designs and compact GPUs in the coming few years, than less.
Reading through the thread, I got the impression this project could easily turn into another large-ish mATX case, albeit, very nice looking. But surely if people want a mATX case that can fit all standard hardware and cooling options without compromises, there are plenty of options on the market already?
Carry-on size is actually a tough requirement to meet for a mATX case. The average carry on size limit across different airlines is around 55 x 35 x 22cm - but that needs to include the bag itself. 55cm is plenty for the length of the case, and 22cm is manageable for a narrower case, but 35cm puts some signficant restrictions on possible layouts. All of the "traditional"-style layouts (PSU above or below motherboard) are too tall, leaving the PSU at the front or over the motherboard as your only options.Right now, I'd be tempted to go with an M1. If Nova became available, or a healthy looking competitor that would still fit in carry-on luggage (wink, wink) I'd trade ultra low case volume for the benefit of an mATX motherboard.
It depends entirely on the specifics of a particular design whether that makes sense or not. In general, if it's reasonable to do, I usually try to do it.Is there any way to convert the space dedicated for a radiator to be used as a 3.5" or 2.5" hard drive bay?
It probably doesn't make sense to do. Each module would be like it's own mini-case, since each needs it's own internal chassis and panels etc. A case consisting of multiple modules would cost considerably more than an equivalent single case. I think there's a tendency for people to think that the amount of material is the primary driver of cost, but that's not necessarily true; every cut, bend operation, rivet, screw, etc. adds to the cost, and a small case, or modular section, can have just as many (or more) as a larger case. With die-stamped cases it isn't going to play as large a role, since a lot of the cuts/bends are done by the die. But with the lower-volume way Lian Li makes cases, each operation drives up the cost.A concept I'd find quite interesting would be a kind of modular case. Say, you only need short GPUs and an SFX psu? Fine, the basic setup with under 20L in volume will do. Longer GPU? No problem, just extend the lenght of the case a bit. 3.5" HDDs and ODD? Let's add 1 (or 20) storage modules!
The only difficulties i see in such a design are prices because of many seperate modules and the difficulty of designing the parts so they are visually pleasing and technically solid in every possible combination of modules. imho that would be the perfect case nobody would have to compromise on anything...
It's a fair point. Smaller mATX cases that are still able to support higher end hardware are vanishingly few, and you're right that a larger case suffers from the problem of not really offering anything that isn't already available. I think in order to really get the size down though, we may have to give up any pretense of watercooling support. Which isn't the worst thing, IMO, but it's going to limit the enthusiast appeal.
I think in order to really get the size down though, we may have to give up any pretense of watercooling support. Which isn't the worst thing, IMO, but it's going to limit the enthusiast appeal.
The basic reason why I'm against an "mATX M1" is that it simply doesn't make sense. I go over it at the end of my design post. Basically, the M1's layout only works because of way the components fit together - which is no longer the case once you're designing around mATX instead. The volume is distributed awkwardly (long and low), and it simply isn't able to make efficient use of space.I have read in earlier posts that a few, including yourself Necere, Phuncz, have spoken against developing towards "the mATX M1" with the most efficient design. I suppose, the M1 was intended to support a lot of off-the-shelf hardware, while offering liquid cooling support, full ATX PSU, etc.
What does the "ultimate compact mATX" look like, though? That's one of the things I've been trying to get at. I did a concept here, which cuts out watercooling support to achieve a smaller size, but it's still 22L. Does that qualify as "ultra compact?" That's probably not what most people have in mind, but look at that concept and tell me what you would cut or move to make it smaller?An 'ultimate compact mATX' isn't the same project increased in size, but is there any other reason (aside from putting off enthusiast liquid builders, and a departure from the M1) you don't want to go down that route?
What does the "ultimate compact mATX" look like, though?
The basic reason why I'm against an "mATX M1" is that it simply doesn't make sense. I go over it at the end of my design post. Basically, the M1's layout only works because of way the components fit together - which is no longer the case once you're designing around mATX instead. The volume is distributed awkwardly (long and low), and it simply isn't able to make efficient use of space.
What does the "ultimate compact mATX" look like, though? That's one of the things I've been trying to get at. I did a concept here, which cuts out watercooling support to achieve a smaller size, but it's still 22L. Does that qualify as "ultra compact?" That's probably not what most people have in mind, but look at that concept and tell me what you would cut or move to make it smaller?
Anyway, somewhat answering my own question, I have been putting some time into a new mATX concept the last few days. I saw your post in the Nova thread about wanting something that could fit in a Pelican case, which got me curious: this case is their carry-on size, and according to the site the internal dimensions are 487x285x203mm. That's actually not at all an easy target to hit for an mATX case, and I can't think of any case designed for performance hardware (read: long GPUs + good CPU/chassis cooling) that would fit. But it did inspire me to see if I could come up with something specifically to fit those dimensions. And I believe I have. I'm not ready to show pics just yet, but I can tell you that 1) it's around 20L, and 2) it supports SFX/SFX-L only. I know I've stated repeatedly that I don't favor SFX for mATX cases, due to the lower power ratings and lesser availability, but with 700W available soon and - I have reason to believe - 750W in the near future, it's starting to seem like less of a limitation. And the gains in space efficiency are non-trivial over ATX PSUs.
It may not be a bad way to go, we've seen more than a few people building portable workstations based on the M1 and AsRock X99E-ITX that there seems to be a real market for. Most of these builds are also focused on air-cooling because of restrictions on liquids on airplanes in some parts of the world. Air cooling is also more robust for traveling in my opinion as watercooling has more ways it can fail while in transit. Also both Nvidia and AMD have lowered the TDP for their newest GPUs, which I believe will continue with their new products in 2016, which means dual GPUs and a high-end CPU shouldn't be a problem for a 700W PSU.
But personally I'm still a fan of the mATX design that allows ATX boards. Every time I see an awesome new board, it's an ATX sized board frustratingly. While I don't want to give the market even more reason to go with ATX but with less focus on powerful and feature-rich mATX boards the last few years, this might be a battle that's already to far gone to be won.
Nonetheless, I'm still very curious what comes out of this, between projects like the Kimera Nova and Jeffinslaw's mATX project, mATX still has a lot to offer in possibilities and I'm very interested in seeing what you can come up with.
This is definitely a potential concern, though on a cursory search I can't find any reports of people actually having an issue with AIOs getting through airport security. Lots of people asking if they can, and people telling them not to, but little in the way of actual first hand experiences either way.It may not be a bad way to go, we've seen more than a few people building portable workstations based on the M1 and AsRock X99E-ITX that there seems to be a real market for. Most of these builds are also focused on air-cooling because of restrictions on liquids on airplanes in some parts of the world.
I don't really see the point of a case like this. Poor CPU cooling, no SLI/extra expansion card support, horribly cramped. It makes far more sense to go with mini-ITX at that size, IMO.I recently thought of another "ultimate mATX/ATX SFF case" idea you could take into consideration if you're thinking about pelican case format:
340 x 280 x 105 mm = 10L
You could do a brick like this with external style of LRPC
There would be an internal partition like this to enforce the airflow and support psu and gpu
Note that there should be a passive radiator on cpu, something server-grade.
It would be a positive pressure cooling type case
Anyway it's still a pain to make something fresh with mATX
The SG10 is 23L though, does that really qualify as "ultra compact mATX?" I get the sense from some people that it doesn't, even though for the hardware it supports it's absolutely about as small as it can get.Like the Silverstone Sugo SG10.
Something worth noting: the highest wattage 140mm-deep ATX PSUs are 750W, which SFX-L is soon to hit. That means, purely on the basis of wattage, it only really makes sense to support ATX PSUs that are 160mm+. That's a 20mm difference (or 30mm over SFX-L), which, depending on the specific layout, might mean a corresponding increase in at least one dimension.Honestly I would want the support for a ATX PSU since some people would like to run dual GPUs and overclock them. That is until a powerful enough SFX PSU was produced (looking at your Seasonic or EVGA). I would like to have the option for watercooling but if it wasn't an option I would be okay with that as well.
Sounds like you're describing a less deep version of the traditional layout (layouts 1a-1c in my post). There's nothing really wrong with it, but it couldn't be made short enough to fit a carry on, as I'll go over in a moment.I seam to recall (possibly yourself?) mentioning the general proportions earlier, stating a preference towards a taller case rather than a larger footprint as well. This would certainly be preferable for a desk-top machine. I see in number 4 on the design blog - the M1 layout, that the parts stack neatly into the space above the longest component (the GPU). If you took that principal and applied it to the mATX chassis, with the PSU and drives directly over or under the motherboard / GPU, you'd get the wasted space in the vertical more than the horizontal - less of a long and low scenario? It wouldn't exactly be a Silverstone FT03, but starting to go in that direction. You may even be able to start taking advantage of the chimney effect to assist cooling.
That concept already lacks 3.5" and ODD support.Thinking about my own preference, I'd change the full ATX PSU for an SFX-L. I'd swap the existing drive bays (assuming they are 3.5" compatible) for 2.5" only, and remove ODD support completely.
It's only "dead space" in those renders. In reality, cables would be taking up part of it, and it also allows support for 12" GPUs.I'm thinking loosely here, so without diagrams and checking, but I'd be inclined to return the motherboard to standard orientation, put the graphics cards back at the bottom, above the main air intake, then position the sfx psu and 2.5" drive mounts above the motherboard for a taller, less deep case. A lot of the space currently occupied by the ATX PSU, along with the 'dead space' above it, could then be reclaimed, allowing enough room for just the fans.
So looking at the specs on that carry on case more closely, I realize it doesn't take into account any foam padding, which as far as I can determine is as follows: 0.5" (12.7mm) on the bottom; 1.81" convolute (46mm) on the lid; "Pick N Pluck" filling the rest of the interior, which seems to be a solid block composed of perforated 0.5" cubes.Yes, I have been looking at similar cases on their site. The 1510 carry on also caught my eye (same internal dimensions).
I was going to object on the basis of the ATX spec height restriction, but actually the area towards the front of the board has a lower height restriction, so 120mm fans could actually fit without violating the spec. A bigger problem is how close the board would have to be to the inside front of the chassis; at 257.22mm for the motherboard+PCIe card bracket, it would basically be touching it. Also, there would be no room whatsoever for edge-mounted right angle SATA ports that a lot of mATX boards have.The fans overhanging on the board shouldn't be a problem with the 173mm width you mentioned: it leaves 53mm for case, board, space between board and possible radiator oomph. It might be tight with the ATX cable though, but luckily flat cables are now a thing and Silverstone uses these on every recent PSU.
Short cards most likely won't use blower coolers though, which presents a problem for a case like this, especially in SLI configurations. Remember that even if the PCB is smaller, the TDP won't necessarily be lower, and that means we'll still need bigger coolers. Think GTX 960 reference coolers.Maybe not that polished, this might be a layout you haven't considered but we are in 2016, the year HBM(2) gets it's big showing ! This ofcourse expects that short GPUs about 9,5" are used, but since this case would need time to materialise, both Nvidia and AMD should have short cards in their lineup. Ofcourse to soon to base a design on (unless you got an Nvidia guy) but it might be something to consider.
I don't really see the point of a case like this. Poor CPU cooling, no SLI/extra expansion card support, horribly cramped. It makes far more sense to go with mini-ITX at that size, IMO.
Short cards most likely won't use blower coolers though, which presents a problem for a case like this, especially in SLI configurations. Remember that even if the PCB is smaller, the TDP won't necessarily be lower, and that means we'll still need bigger coolers. Think GTX 960 reference coolers.
Very true, I saw some recent boards having all right-angle SATA ports, sometimes even the USB 3.0 header. It's stuff like this that many forget and you consider. There is still some margin here and there to nudge and we (maybe you did) haven't even considered PCIe extenders. With the LiHeat or what they are called PCI extenders being offered at decent prices, this might be worth to consider placing GPUs at better locations.I was going to object on the basis of the ATX spec height restriction, but actually the area towards the front of the board has a lower height restriction, so 120mm fans could actually fit without violating the spec. A bigger problem is how close the board would have to be to the inside front of the chassis; at 257.22mm for the motherboard+PCIe card bracket, it would basically be touching it. Also, there would be no room whatsoever for edge-mounted right angle SATA ports that a lot of mATX boards have.
While true, it is expected that the move to a 14/16nm process would allow lower TDP. So we can hope this follows suit and allows even lower power GPUs while maintaining a performance increase.Short cards most likely won't use blower coolers though, which presents a problem for a case like this, especially in SLI configurations. Remember that even if the PCB is smaller, the TDP won't necessarily be lower, and that means we'll still need bigger coolers. Think GTX 960 reference coolers.
It may not be a bad way to go, we've seen more than a few people building portable workstations based on the M1 and AsRock X99E-ITX that there seems to be a real market for. Most of these builds are also focused on air-cooling because of restrictions on liquids on airplanes in some parts of the world. Air cooling is also more robust for traveling in my opinion as watercooling has more ways it can fail while in transit. Also both Nvidia and AMD have lowered the TDP for their newest GPUs, which I believe will continue with their new products in 2016, which means dual GPUs and a high-end CPU shouldn't be a problem for a 700W PSU.
I want to get away from the air-vents-on-every-side design that the M1 has. Virtually every small case with good cooling does it using this approach, and for good reason: it saves a lot of space, because you can Tetris fans in to deliver airflow directly to components. However, it doesn't lend itself to pleasing aesthetics or easy dust control.
This was my thinking as well, before we even started this thread. But let's be clear: that layout with "no compromise cooling" (i.e., full tower coolers) and room for a 280 front rad is a 30 liter case, give or take. The pic in this post is an example of essentially what you're asking for.In my opinion the uATX case you have drawn in option 1a, b and c is in fact the case that 80% of the computer enthusiasts should use (but isn't) and if you could make a very good looking case with that design I am certain you would have a killer product.
In my opinion the user that wants a uATX case is not looking for a cramped and space-optimized case. That user would choose mini ITX.
Subtracting the foam, we get:
18.95" x 10.2" x 6.8" (482 x 259 x 173mm)
These dimensions are even tighter than I initially thought, and nearly a dealbreaker for a microATX case.
It may be that we need to look at doing two different mATX cases - the standard 30L, and the compact <20L case
It may be that we need to look at doing two different mATX cases - the standard 30L, and the compact <20L case, like we've been talking about for the last couple of pages. Just have to decide which to do first.
While the top-end cards like the GTX 980Ti and Radeon Fury X still have typical gaming power consumption of over 200W, cards not far off in performance (GTX 980 and R9 Nano or Fury) need less power consumption. Nvidia is still ahead in this race though and it's not like a GTX 980 is a sin.