AMD5950X, Dark Hero, and 32GB GSkill Trident Z RGB / Neo / Royal - DDR4 3600-4000mhz choices ; B-Die really worth the increased price?

RanceJustice

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
6,599
Hello everyone. Having finally acquired my 5950X (at retail) to pair with the Asus Crosshair VIII Dark Hero I was able to acquire near the holidays, I'm trying to decide on RAM to complete the triad. I'm favoring 32GB in total and currently as well as future expansion in mind , 2x 16GB stick dual channel, dual rank kits are the best for performance. Gskill seems to offer high quality, Dark Herocompatible DDR4 and their RGB lit variants such as RGB, Neo, or Royal seem to be favorable as they are aesthetically pleasing, controllable directly from the BIOS/UEFI, as well as via Asus AURA API and software that can interface with it ; I'm potentially open to others, but hear a lot of good about GSkill and they've served me well in the past alongside Corsair and the like.

Its my understanding that to get the most out of my 5950X on a Dark Hero board, I need RAM running at at least 3600mhz but beyond that I don't know what combination of specs are meaningful vs simply benchmark fodder. The two factors are combinations of either frequency from 3600 - 4000mhz or CAS latency from 14 to 18 . Is it really worthwhile to make use of frequencies above 3600mhz ? Likewise, what about lower CL? Should one be prioritized over another? There is likely a certain point where speed and/or latency offers such diminishing returns its not realistic for anyone who isn't shooting to either maximize benchmarks and/or is using exotic cooling (ie something beyond an air cooled heatsink, AIO, or custom water - like LN2 or something) . There is also the point where value comes into things and diminishing returns. This seems particularly important considering that certain types of RAM increase dramatically in price, at a time when RAM is pretty expensive overall.

I've heard frequently that Samsung B-Die are among the best chips available and I've looked at sites like https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/ . However, it seems that the commonly available GSkill kits I've been looking into are not on the aforementioned list. For instance, https://www.amazon.com/G-Skill-Trid...WTS8T2W/ref=dp_fod_2?pd_rd_i=B07WTS8T2W&psc=1 is a common CL16 kit at a comparatively reasonable price on Amazon or Newegg from about $200-230. Reading that the B-Die version of CL16 is at 16-16-16-36 for instance, is at minimum $295 - 350+ - https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232860 . Finding 3600mhz CL14, is a bit harder and seems to be around $350 - https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820374093 . Is there really value in paying the additional expense for verified B-Die? For 4000mhz there seems to be a similar situation in that finding the purported BDie versions, too.

So ultimately deciding which specs to choose and which price premiums are worthwhile in terms of getting the most meaningful performance out a 5950X on air / AIO / custom water is the current quandary. Advice appreciated, thanks.
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
I don't have any testing or personal data to show you but I don't think forking out a lot more money for the B-die is worth it at this point. If you could get B-die for nearly the same price I would say it's a no-brainer but the cost of it has gone way up since it's not being made anymore.

Another point to consider is that one of the biggest draws to B-die for Ryzen was that on the earlier Ryzens with weaker memory controllers B-die tended to be more compatible. With the later Ryzens that's not really an issue anymore.

At this time I think the only reason to go for B-die would be if you're looking to squeeze out every last bit of performance from the RAM and mostly just for benchmarking purposes with low CAS latency. There may be certain workloads which work much better with lower memory latency but they are likely few and far between and if that's the case you probably already know it and would be looking for low latency RAM.

When I was looking for RAM for my recent 5800x upgrade I pondered getting some B-die but the extra cost wasn't worth the likely unnoticeable performance increase I would get out of it. The kit I have is DDR4 3600 16-19-19-39 with Hynix chips, a G.Skill Ripjaws V 16 gig set. At the time I purchased it the 16-16-16-36 B-die kit was somewhere between $30-$50 more depending on whether I was looking at the Ripjaws or Trident-z Neo set. That was simply too much of a price difference for performance I would never notice. It's even worse if you're looking for the CAS 14 B-die kits. Those were not happening on my budget.

I went with the cheaper 16-19-19-39 3600 kit because I knew it would be more than good enough running at stock XMP. I haven't tested extensively for anything more but I have it running 3800mhz with the same timings and a small voltage bump with IF at 1900mhz and it's perfectly stable. That said, without running benchmarks I personally haven't seen any advantage of even that overclock and I expect anything "better" from the B-die RAM would be just as impossible to notice outside of specific scenarios.

Outside of benchmarking, few people are going to notice the difference between B-die and other RAM and to get even those differences would require a lot of time and effort to overclock and tighten timings on the RAM. If you're not looking to spend a lot of time and effort into doing that the B-die RAM will likely be a waste. If you're looking to toss the kit in, run it at XMP settings and forget it I would recommend any quality DDR4 3600 CAS16 kit. I like all the performance I can get but when it comes to a large cost and time and effort increase it's not worth it for me.
 
I believe b die is more worthwhile than the Dark Hero as far as performance per $ goes from overclocking.
For example in memory sensitive programs which is most.

MSI MAG B550 TOMAHAWK $165 F4-3800C14D-32GTZN $409 = $575​

will outperform
ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero $699.99 F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC $206 =$906
Although granted you also get a few extra features with the more expensive MB.

You can get 4400 19-19-19 Patriot Viper sticks rather cheap run 4 of them at 3800c14-c15 or if your CPU is good for it ~4000c15-16.
Down side to these sticks vs G.Skill is no temperature sensor but just keep a fan blowing directly over them for 1.45v+ and they should be fine.

Seems the sticks are cheaper in AU than the US
https://www.amazon.com/Viper-Steel-...ild=1&keywords=4400+c19&qid=1618088354&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com.au/Viper-Ste...ild=1&keywords=4400+c19&qid=1618088441&sr=8-5

To give you a idea of the potential performance here is 3200c16 vs 3800c14 with 3900x and 5900x although it is important to note that 3800c14 wont perform near this good without the tuned sub timings that go with it.
 
Last edited:
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
I have these with the same combo above (5950x, CH8DH) , I run them at 3600 CL14, I didn't see any performance gain at 4000/2000 so I avoided the additional heat from higher voltage to the SOC.

(I grabbed them on Sale for $250) so the price was right! Now I'm looking to trade them for some Corsair memory so that I Can control my whole system via iCue.
https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb...re=32g_trident z royal-_-20-374-012-_-Product
 
What timings did you use for 3600c14 vs 4000? including subs and what software did you test the performance difference with?

@4000 I ran the XMP profile, since the zen memory timings app will not give me speeds for 4000
@3600
1618093593483.png

:)
 
@4000 I ran the XMP profile, since the zen memory timings app will not give me speeds for 4000
That would do it :)

You could give these settings a try if you like.
You may find you can run 1T or tCL15 with a little more VDIMM and you may be able to lower VSOC, VDDG IOD depending on your chip quality.
You could probably also get the SCL stable at a lower level than this person used.
But it looks like a good baseline to start from for 4000.
today-png.pngbest-png.png
 
That would do it :)

You could give these settings a try if you like.
You may find you can run 1T or tCL15 with a little more VDIMM and you may be able to lower VSOC, VDDG IOD depending on your chip quality.
You could probably also get the SCL stable at a lower level than this person used.
But it looks like a good baseline to start from for 4000.
View attachment 346912View attachment 346913
TY, I will try these.

Here is my result @ 4000 before. with XMP profile.

1618105209816.png


@ 3600
cachemem.png
 
Last edited:
I was holding out on the F4-3800C14D-32GTZN and trying to wait on the price to go back down, but then I got an email that the expected date of my Dark Hero went from May 14th to now expected to be in warehouse by April 18th. I liked the C14 at 3800mhz, and tested to work with the Dark Hero, but now i will just need something that works.
 
I was holding out on the F4-3800C14D-32GTZN and trying to wait on the price to go back down, but then I got an email that the expected date of my Dark Hero went from May 14th to now expected to be in warehouse by April 18th. I liked the C14 at 3800mhz, and tested to work with the Dark Hero, but now i will just need something that works.


https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820374012?Item=N82E16820374012

Running these at DDR3600 CL14 @ 1.4v, so 3800 @ CL14 may be doable?
In stock and $100 less
 
I believe b die is more worthwhile than the Dark Hero as far as performance per $ goes from overclocking.
For example in memory sensitive programs which is most.

MSI MAG B550 TOMAHAWK $165 F4-3800C14D-32GTZN $409 = $575​

will outperform
ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero $699.99 F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC $206 =$906
Although granted you also get a few extra features with the more expensive MB.

You can get 4400 19-19-19 Patriot Viper sticks rather cheap run 4 of them at 3800c14-c15 or if your CPU is good for it ~4000c15-16.
Down side to these sticks vs G.Skill is no temperature sensor but just keep a fan blowing directly over them for 1.45v+ and they should be fine.

Seems the sticks are cheaper in AU than the US
https://www.amazon.com/Viper-Steel-...ild=1&keywords=4400+c19&qid=1618088354&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com.au/Viper-Ste...ild=1&keywords=4400+c19&qid=1618088441&sr=8-5

To give you a idea of the potential performance here is 3200c16 vs 3800c14 with 3900x and 5900x although it is important to note that 3800c14 wont perform near this good without the tuned sub timings that go with it.

The x570 dark is a $450~ MB. That is scalpers price from a 3rd party seller. I don't believe going beyond 3600 cas 16 is really worth the price premium.
 
As an Amazon Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
The x570 dark is a $450~ MB. That is scalpers price from a 3rd party seller. I don't believe going beyond 3600 cas 16 is really worth the price premium.
Still slower and $100 more expensive with cheaper RAM.
While I would usually suggest something better value for somebody looking to OC with a B550 MB and 5600X-3900X like this lower bin of b die
G.SKILL Flare X Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model F4-3200C14D-32GFX $259.99
When they are spending so much on 5950X and a top end MB just so they can get another few % out of the CPU it seems better value to me to get RAM that is binned to higher speeds so they can double that small % gain from paying the extra on the MB.

TY, I will try these.

Let me know how you go.
If you have any trouble the only settings that look overly aggressive from that is tRTP & tRDWR so you could try setting them to auto if you have trouble posting.
 
For performance, probably not worth it. But if, like me, overclocking is a fun hobby, yeah, go for it.
 
The x570 dark is a $450~ MB. That is scalpers price from a 3rd party seller. I don't believe going beyond 3600 cas 16 is really worth the price premium.

I tend to agree. I have a hard time spending $350 for 32GB of Cas 14 3800Mhz memory when I got a 32GB kit of Cas 16 3600Mhz for $110 from Amazon. I'll never see $240 worth of difference.
 
I tend to agree. I have a hard time spending $350 for 32GB of Cas 14 3800Mhz memory when I got a 32GB kit of Cas 16 3600Mhz for $110 from Amazon. I'll never see $240 worth of difference.
True enough but the question is do you think you would see $251 worth of difference with the x570 dark $450 over your Asus TUF X570-Plus $199?

The main reason anyone would buy the dark is if they were really into spending time tweaking the system for every last % of performance of which you will get more from the RAM than the MB.
 
True enough but the question is do you think you would see $251 worth of difference with the x570 dark $450 over your Asus TUF X570-Plus $199?

The main reason anyone would buy the dark is if they were really into spending time tweaking the system for every last % of performance of which you will get more from the RAM than the MB.

I mean at least with the motherboard there are aesthetic differences and usually differences with the build quality. I actually downgraded from the original CH8 because I didn't feel like I was using all the features for the money.
 
Dark Hero is 14+2, Asus X570-Plus is 12+2, so theoretically better VRM performance. Passive cooling on the chipset. Intel Gigabit + Realtek 2.5Gb vs Realtek gigabit (I personally prefer Intel to Realtek on gigabit, based on past experiences which could no longer be valid). S1220 audio codec plus built in DAC vs S1200A. More usb ports, Wi-fi 6, built in adapter for front ports cable connections (i hate trying to put those things on the MB pins), and I like the look better.
 
I guess my point is that there is always a question of spending more money and getting more performance. I just think that spending several hundred dollars more for RAM that tightens to slightly tighter timings/speeds is probably the worst bang for the buck out there. I don't know that the vast majority of people would be able to tell the difference between 3800/C14 and 3600/C16 outside of synthetic benchmarks. It's not like games go from playable to unplayable. With the motherboard example, at least there are other factors such as aesthetics, feature set, etc.
 
ah, gotcha. For a while there the 3800/C14 were around the same price as 3600/C16. That seems to have changed now
 
Still slower and $100 more expensive with cheaper RAM.
While I would usually suggest something better value for somebody looking to OC with a B550 MB and 5600X-3900X like this lower bin of b die
G.SKILL Flare X Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model F4-3200C14D-32GFX $259.99
When they are spending so much on 5950X and a top end MB just so they can get another few % out of the CPU it seems better value to me to get RAM that is binned to higher speeds so they can double that small % gain from paying the extra on the MB.



Let me know how you go.
If you have any trouble the only settings that look overly aggressive from that is tRTP & tRDWR so you could try setting them to auto if you have trouble posting.

Looks like I'm stuck at 3600 at the moment! I'm not sure if it's the latest bios or the new CPU. 5900x had no issues at 2000/4000, however the current 5950x crashes 3800 & 4000
 
Looks like I'm stuck at 3600 at the moment! I'm not sure if it's the latest bios or the new CPU. 5900x had no issues at 2000/4000, however the current 5950x crashes 3800 & 4000
Some BIOS do crash for me at 3800+ but 3733 is fine while other BIOS allow 4000+ but with corrected WHEA errors at 3800+.
 
When it comes to DDR4 speeds 3600+ I would argue its more important to have dual rank, than it is to have timings lower than 18 (although 16 is pretty attainable, in terms of cost. At least for 3600).
 
Some BIOS do crash for me at 3800+ but 3733 is fine while other BIOS allow 4000+ but with corrected WHEA errors at 3800+.

With this current bios, I can't run prime on small ffts at all, instant crash, even at stock speeds. (I'm on 3401) I guess I will be waiting for 3501 to come out of beta.
 
I just got my 5950x and dark hero mobo with the G skill ddr4 3800 cl14 sticks. Can't get it to post with the docp settings. Any tips on getting it to post with the stock rated timing for the rams.

32gb kit with 4 ram stick.
 
I just got my 5950x and dark hero mobo with the G skill ddr4 3800 cl14 sticks. Can't get it to post with the docp settings. Any tips on getting it to post with the stock rated timing for the rams.

32gb kit with 4 ram stick.

does it post with 2 sticks?
 
I just got my 5950x and dark hero mobo with the G skill ddr4 3800 cl14 sticks. Can't get it to post with the docp settings. Any tips on getting it to post with the stock rated timing for the rams.

32gb kit with 4 ram stick.

Your trying to push a lot of memory to very high speeds. Your proc may just not be able to do that, CL 14 is very fast and you may need to turn that down along with the speed to run the full 32G. The more load you put on the memory controller, the harder it is to push clocks faster.

I run 64G in my rig with 4 sticks of 16G, mine runs 3466 at CL 18, and no matter what I did with timings I could not get it to post 3600.
 
Your trying to push a lot of memory to very high speeds. Your proc may just not be able to do that, CL 14 is very fast and you may need to turn that down along with the speed to run the full 32G. The more load you put on the memory controller, the harder it is to push clocks faster.

I run 64G in my rig with 4 sticks of 16G, mine runs 3466 at CL 18, and no matter what I did with timings I could not get it to post 3600.
So far I got it to 3400 at cl14 @ 1.4v. Haven't had time to memtest it yet but it posted at least.
 
Yeah CL14 is a really tight timing nowadays, at any reasonable speed, really.

I would copy the timings from some CL18 ram and see if it will post at a higher speed, with that. and then try to tweak it down from there.

I would also follow the methodology here, for timings. Even when you aren't necessarily tweaking down as low as possible.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-memory-tweaking-overclocking-guide/

It seems to me that Ryzen may have some more compatible/optimal sub-timing ranges which could result in more success, in general. And that article could help you get there.
 
I think B-Die can be worth it as it does buy quite a bit of freedom with voltages/scaling and the ability to really tighten some of the sub-timings (2nd and 3rd level). I think this is true across Intel and AMD. My 32GB Quad Kit was only rated for 3200Mhz @ 1.35V (got it back in x99 days!). Currently have it singing at 3733Mhz at CAS 16 on my 5950x. CAS 14 was working at that speed, but took 1.48V on the dimms, which was a little too much for my blood for 24/7 use. However; I got my current speeds with only 1.44V on the sticks and confirmed as stable in loads of stability and memory testing. I tried for 3800Mhz+, but that required a hard Cmos reset... lol. God I love that reset button vs. pulling the battery back in the day...

cachemem_5950x_3733_6_CstatesOFF.png
 
Yeah CL14 is a really tight timing nowadays, at any reasonable speed, really.

I would copy the timings from some CL18 ram and see if it will post at a higher speed, with that. and then try to tweak it down from there.

I would also follow the methodology here, for timings. Even when you aren't necessarily tweaking down as low as possible.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-memory-tweaking-overclocking-guide/

It seems to me that Ryzen may have some more compatible/optimal sub-timing ranges which could result in more success, in general. And that article could help you get there.
Thank you will check it out tonight. This is really my first time dipping into memory overclock. First AMD rig as well.
 
Back
Top